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1 hour ago, Jocky Balboa said:

I think Ali, Foreman and Sonny Liston, among others, would have hammered him.

He’d beat them all right now though 

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14 hours ago, Jocky Balboa said:

Here's a topic worthy of some hot debate - is Mike Tyson really an all-time great, or a media hype?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.boxingnews24.com/2018/05/was-mike-tyson-overrated/%3famp

This is one of many articles that says the latter and it's hard to disagree with what he says here. 

My general take on it is that, while he peaked very early (no-one can say what would have happened if Cus D'amato hadn't passed so early in his career) there are several key points against him being one of the greats:

1. He did very well to clean up his division in the first 4 or so years. However, he never beat an all-time great in their prime; 

- Larry Holmes had been retired for two years and at 38, was way past his best.

- Berbick beat a caricature of Muhammad Ali and was never anything more than a decent fighter who overachieved.

- Wasn't Spinks a natural Light-Heavyweight who moved up and was overmatched?

- Bruno (both times) was as much a case of Bruno beating himself - his fear had him defeated before he stepped in the ring

2. He never got off the canvas to win a fight, like many greats. Every time someone successfully stood up to his bullyboy tactics, he had no Plan B and lost.

3. He never avenged any of his defeats, unlike many greats.

- Buster Douglas had just lost his mother and fought the fight of his life, against a Tyson who was complacent, that is true, but the latter had never truly been tested and when finally put to the sword, he folded

- People remember the Holyfield double header for the ear-biting incident, but forget that Holyfield dominated the first fight and was on his way to winning the second - tell me Tyson didn't do this as a way out via disqualification?

- He asked Lennox Lewis for a rematch at the end of the first, but looking at the way the first fight went (Lewis outclassed him in almost all rounds) he would have embarrassed himself in the process

So all in all, I would have to say that he deserves credit for his early peak years, albeit in a weak era, but overall I'd say he's not even an all-time great heavyweight, far less a great boxer overall. I think Ali, Foreman and Sonny Liston, among others, would have hammered him.

Holyfield and Lewis especially fought a shell.  Tyson was never the same after he left jail.

 

Buster Douglas fight he was knocking back champagne in the dressing room before it

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3 hours ago, NEM said:

Holyfield and Lewis especially fought a shell.  Tyson was never the same after he left jail.

 

Buster Douglas fight he was knocking back champagne in the dressing room before it

Did Holyfield fight a shell, or was he just a better fighter than many gave him credit for? I've heard a lot of people say Evander was a blown-up Cruiserweight, but going into the first Tyson fight he was a real underdog, after Tyson swept away journeymen on his comeback, but in the first fight he dominated the supposed "baddest man on the planet" and deservedly stopped him late on. In the second, he was on his way to another victory, hence why it's no stretch to say Tyson bit his ear to get a disqualification as a way out.

Holyfield's career is impressive overall. The man could take one hell of a beating. 

Lewis additionally may have fought a Tyson past his best (not his fault, but Lewis was paid to step aside in the past by Tyson's camp - I wonder why?) but I'm not convinced "prime Tyson" would have beaten peak Lewis, the former always struggled against big guys who had stamina. Lewis was a formidable fighter who was better than many (especially Tyson fanboys) gave him credit for. 

I'm taking nothing away from early Tyson, except to point out he never beat an all-time great in their prime (as I said, Holmes was 38 and retired for a few years, way past his best) and despite the post-jail hype, fought mostly journeymen and lost every time someone stood up to his bullyboy tactics. Great puncher, but when he didn't get an early knockout he always struggled.

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3 minutes ago, Jocky Balboa said:

Did Holyfield fight a shell, or was he just a better fighter than many gave him credit for? I've heard a lot of people say Evander was a blown-up Cruiserweight, but going into the first Tyson fight he was a real underdog, after Tyson swept away journeymen on his comeback, but in the first fight he dominated the supposed "baddest man on the planet" and deservedly stopped him late on. In the second, he was on his way to another victory, hence why it's no stretch to say Tyson bit his ear to get a disqualification as a way out.

Holyfield's career is impressive overall. The man could take one hell of a beating. 

Lewis additionally may have fought a Tyson past his best (not his fault, but Lewis was paid to step aside in the past by Tyson's camp - I wonder why?) but I'm not convinced "prime Tyson" would have beaten peak Lewis, the former always struggled against big guys who had stamina. Lewis was a formidable fighter who was better than many (especially Tyson fanboys) gave him credit for. 

I'm taking nothing away from early Tyson, except to point out he never beat an all-time great in their prime (as I said, Holmes was 38 and retired for a few years, way past his best) and despite the post-jail hype, fought mostly journeymen and lost every time someone stood up to his bullyboy tactics. Great puncher, but when he didn't get an early knockout he always struggled.

Holyfield an all time great but he wouldn't have bullied a prime Tyson the way he did imo.

Real shame Cus d' Amato died when he did - he'd have hopefully kept Tyson on the straight and narrow.  Was a wrecking machine at his peak - not his fault the quality of opposition wasn't as high as previously.

 

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4 hours ago, NEM said:

Holyfield an all time great but he wouldn't have bullied a prime Tyson the way he did imo.

Real shame Cus d' Amato died when he did - he'd have hopefully kept Tyson on the straight and narrow.  Was a wrecking machine at his peak - not his fault the quality of opposition wasn't as high as previously.

 

Again, good post. That said, while I agree a prime Tyson would have been more formidable against Holyfield and Lewis, I'm still not convinced he would have reversed the results. As you say, he was a wrecking machine, but by the same token, it's also true that he was one-dimensional in that regard, hence why he always struggled against "big" heavyweights who both knew how to face him down AND had no fear. 

I'm certainly not suggesting you're one, but his apologists make all kinds of excuses for him, such as his post-jail troubles, but Muhammad Ali was jailed and, despite a rocky comeback at first, went on to become arguably the greatest heavyweight of them all. Tyson was afforded every opportunity to come back stronger, like Ali; the money, the hype, the box office... he had it all, yet ducked Foreman and, for many years, avoided Lewis. 

For me Tyson is not, as some suggest, the most overrated of them all, but I don't think he's an all-time great, either. The hype is greater than his record. He wasn't the "baddest man on the planet", he was the biggest bully and like all bullies, he met his match whenever people stood up to him. I would put Ali, Foreman and a few others ahead of him in the GOAT heavyweight category alone.

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22 hours ago, Jocky Balboa said:

Here's a topic worthy of some hot debate - is Mike Tyson really an all-time great, or a media hype?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.boxingnews24.com/2018/05/was-mike-tyson-overrated/%3famp

This is one of many articles that says the latter and it's hard to disagree with what he says here. 

My general take on it is that, while he peaked very early (no-one can say what would have happened if Cus D'amato hadn't passed so early in his career) there are several key points against him being one of the greats:

1. He did very well to clean up his division in the first 4 or so years. However, he never beat an all-time great in their prime; 

- Larry Holmes had been retired for two years and at 38, was way past his best.

- Berbick beat a caricature of Muhammad Ali and was never anything more than a decent fighter who overachieved.

- Wasn't Spinks a natural Light-Heavyweight who moved up and was overmatched?

- Bruno (both times) was as much a case of Bruno beating himself - his fear had him defeated before he stepped in the ring

2. He never got off the canvas to win a fight, like many greats. Every time someone successfully stood up to his bullyboy tactics, he had no Plan B and lost.

3. He never avenged any of his defeats, unlike many greats.

- Buster Douglas had just lost his mother and fought the fight of his life, against a Tyson who was complacent, that is true, but the latter had never truly been tested and when finally put to the sword, he folded

- People remember the Holyfield double header for the ear-biting incident, but forget that Holyfield dominated the first fight and was on his way to winning the second - tell me Tyson didn't do this as a way out via disqualification?

- He asked Lennox Lewis for a rematch at the end of the first, but looking at the way the first fight went (Lewis outclassed him in almost all rounds) he would have embarrassed himself in the process

So all in all, I would have to say that he deserves credit for his early peak years, albeit in a weak era, but overall I'd say he's not even an all-time great heavyweight, far less a great boxer overall. I think Ali, Foreman and Sonny Liston, among others, would have hammered him.

Somewhere between the 2. The most exciting heavyweight ever in his early years.

If he'd live the right life would he have ended up an all time great? I think so.

As it is - in the top 20 for achievements.

Maybe top 5 for hype, excitement, draw etc.

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2 hours ago, Don Fonte said:

Somewhere between the 2. The most exciting heavyweight ever in his early years.

If he'd live the right life would he have ended up an all time great? I think so.

As it is - in the top 20 for achievements.

Maybe top 5 for hype, excitement, draw etc.

Agree for the most part, the truth is somewhere in between. Usually heavyweights leak later than the rest, so given his best years were between 19-24 it's always going to be a case of "what if" but he only has himself to blame.

2 hours ago, rocket_scientist said:

Agree. But it was a short prime, a small window when he wasn't up against anything great so it's impossible to know how good he was when he first became champion.

Loved his animality. Didn't like him. Saw a thing recently when they were recording a podcast or interview and he was stoned, smoking on the job. Fine young criminal who had a serious talent for a short time. 

Agree. I just don't buy the widely-held hypothesis that in his peak he would have bested everyone, either before or since. Those who point to his power fail to mention Sonny Liston, those who point to his wrecking ball style neglect that Foreman was an unbelievable puncher in his day and demolished Frazier, among others.

Speaking of Foreman, there was an almost universal feeling that Ali hadn't a prayer against him (apparently Ali's own corner thought he was in for a hiding) which was understandable, given Foreman had destroyed guys who went toe to toe with Ali. Yet Ali outwitted him.

So with Liston, Foreman and Ali, there's 3 heavyweights who could have beaten Tyson convincingly. I also think Holyfield and Lewis would still have been too resilient / big and strong respectively.

As for the modern scene, not sure about the Klitschko's and Fury, but they certainly wouldn't lie down to him.

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6 minutes ago, Roberto said:

Channel 5? Random, but works out fine.

Aberdeen 12.15pm

Lazio Spezia at 2pm.

Leicester Man City 5.30pm

Arsenal Liverpool at 8pm

Boxing at 10pm.

Shaping up for a good Saturday. Few bottles of SB for you Don?

Aye, apparently a falling out between Frank Warren and Frampton so no BTSports and it's on 5.  Not sure what time it's on locally in Dubai.

Nah, got the wee one for a week or so for the holidays from the weekend so be chilled oot. Maybe a couple glasses though.

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18 hours ago, Don Fonte said:

Somewhere between the 2. The most exciting heavyweight ever in his early years.

If he'd live the right life would he have ended up an all time great? I think so.

As it is - in the top 20 for achievements.

Maybe top 5 for hype, excitement, draw etc.

Pretty much how I see it

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