Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:06 PM, Parklife said:

I've to give you made up figures, like the GERS? That's your line? 
 

No one (That's not a dense political partisan) claims the GERS are a reflection on the hypothetical finances of an Independent Scotland. You'd have to be pretty simple to actually believe that 8% of the UK (the 8% which is behind only London in terms of GDP per capita) makes 60% the UK deficit. If you want to believe that and belittle 5.5 million of your fellow citizens though, then crack on. 

1) No, as you know, I was saying it would be nice if the SNP had stuck to their own plan of showing us their own version of Scotland finances.  it doesn't look good that they have failed to do so, does it?  I think only Sevco could rival the SNP in terms of opaque finances.

Sturgeon has now set out a plan for a new referendum bill, saying they will "make the case" for independence during the election campaign.  That's bold talk, for someone who has just shat out of doing exactly that.

If that have an economic picture, why don't they just share it now?  They must have something down on paper, they have been in power for years.  Surely they are not going to quickly cobble something together in these next few months? 

2) The GERS figures are an estimation of the finances of contemporary Scotland.  They indicate a start point for an independent Scotland.  Separatists like to say that losing UK money wouldn't be bad, because we can make "different economic choices" - all we voters are asking, is for them to share what these choices might be.  That's not unreasonable is it?

The strong impression I have is that the SNP and their voters don't really know or care what the choices might be.

There are quite amazing parallels between the SNP voting block and the membership of Club 1872.  Both are very credulous groups who swoon over the latest waffle from their high command, which is invariably lacking detail and coherence. 

The SNP dummies can be relied upon to tick the box at elections, just as the sevco dummines can be relied upon with their monthly £18.72 standing order.  Both groups have a slavish adherence to a leadership which takes them for granted, tells them nothing and treats them like fools.

There would be something very Scottish about voting to break out from one of the richest, most stable and most influential and successful nations in the world, to become a peripheral entity in a failing EU where we would have no voice or influence whatsoever, and membership of which directly harms Scotland economy (loss of fishing, the US whisky tarrifs, loss of fiscal autonomy etc).

I very much suspect that indy voters with qualifications and transferable skills (including you dear Parky) would be out of Scotland like rats off a sinking ship, once the reality of their choices began to materialise. They would join the healthy legions of celebrities and comfortable middle classes who like to lionise indy Scotland from afar.

I think the indy movement is in large part driven by the "have nots" - people who don't have a mortgage or pension to risk - who, thanks to decades of anti tory / english propaganda, believe that simply voting for indy will magically transform Scotland into a land of milk and honey.

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

18 hours ago, milne_afc said:

Another bottle job on the cards. 

Too little and too fucking stupid. 

Scotland could well be an independent nation, but It does very well out of being a devolved nation in the UK.

However, our Holyrood politicians are indeed "too fucking stupid" and their collective record since the advent of Holyrood has been the best advert against separation.

In 20 years the Parliament has produced or achieved nothing. 

In all that time, I could name precious few of its elected members who I had felt was a good orator or whose intellect had impressed me. 

Compared to previous Westminster administration, the parliament actually costs us more for a significantly poorer standard of services.

[caledonia]

19 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Scotland could well be an independent nation, but It does very well out of being a devolved nation in the UK.

However, our Holyrood politicians are indeed "too fucking stupid" and their collective record since the advent of Holyrood has been the best advert against separation.

In 20 years the Parliament has produced or achieved nothing. 

In all that time, I could name precious few of its elected members who I had felt was a good orator or whose intellect had impressed me. 

Compared to previous Westminster administration, the parliament actually costs us more for a significantly poorer standard of services.

Hardly nothing but don't let that get in your way of Trashing Scotland 

https://www.snp.org/record/

And before you start i am for independence but disagree with snp on many many things especially lately.

 

[NEM]

5 minutes ago, Henry said:

Who had the 2nd of September for Rocket mentioning how wealthy he was?

Must have won the pools or the lottery.  There's no danger someone that angry is a success in the work place ?

[Henry]

Who had the 2nd of September for Rocket mentioning how wealthy he was?

[manboobs109]

17 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

I don't have a mortgage. I paid for my new car in July and my wife's new car yesterday in cash. I wouldn't describe myself as a have-not but I am fiercely pro independence. How does that fit your preconceptions? I also think it highly unlikely that a man who believes in any form of organised religion has the mental capacity to understand anything the fuck that's going on. 

I paid cash for my car too. It was only £800 likes but cash is king

[Clydeside_Sheep]

50 minutes ago, caledonia said:

Hardly nothing but don't let that get in your way of Trashing Scotland 

https://www.snp.org/record/

And before you start i am for independence but disagree with snp on many many things especially lately.

 

I didn't trash Scotland, I trashed the Parliament, don't be so sensitive.

That's a shocking link to use to defend the SNP.

The first boast it makes is that they have "transformed education" - FFS. Yes they have turned it into a shambles, with the lowest standards and international ranking in my lifetime.  "Made up" exam results this year is a truly crowning achievement, though the drag queens in primary schools was also a stand out event.  (The wisdom of Section 28 clearly reinforced in that instance).

They go on to say they have "bolstered the heath service".  There is a £150m children's hospital in Edinburgh which was meant to open in July 2019.  Its still not open.  The problems with the building are so severe its even been suggested it may have to be demolished and rebuilt.  The SNP cant say when or if it will open, naturally.

The first tangible achievement it lists is "baby boxes" FFS - a waste of money (we've had 3 of them) gimmick which is more about trying to buy votes, than doing anything necessary.

Their record is absolutely dismal, they make a complete arse of everything they touch.

Anything they have done, could have been done from Westminster - cheaper and better too.  And not just because its Westminster, but because the people there (including the Scots) are of a higher calibre than the union officials, feminists and ID-politics candidates who pollute Holyrood.

I am interested to know what they have done recently that you disagree with?  Their latest Stasi-like plan to make it easier for them to imprison people? 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

41 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

I don't have a mortgage. I paid for my new car in July and my wife's new car yesterday in cash. I wouldn't describe myself as a have-not but I am fiercely pro independence. How does that fit your preconceptions? I also think it highly unlikely that a man who believes in any form of organised religion has the mental capacity to understand anything the fuck that's going on. 

Ah, the turd that wont flush resurfaces at last.

You had a quite a long residence time in the U-bend this time.

Stop using our discussions as a vehicle for mentioning your wealth.

[Henry]

10 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

This may have been due to envy or jealousy, highly destructive forces or some other inadequacy, I care not which. 

Not really, just notable how often you mention your wads of cash.

[Bluto10]

39 minutes ago, NEM said:

Must have won the pools or the lottery.  There's no danger someone that angry is a success in the work place ?

 

23 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

You mistake intolerance for anger. Although I do sometimes get angry on these forums, only at myself for wasting my time. The "work place" isn't for everyone.  

I don’t agree with anger in the workplace

[caledonia]

2 hours ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

 

They go on to say they have "bolstered the heath service".  There is a £150m children's hospital in Edinburgh which was meant to open in July 2019.  Its still not open.  The problems with the building are so severe its even been suggested it may have to be demolished and rebuilt.  The SNP cant say when or if it will open, naturally.

Did the SNP build it because if the Government in place is blame worthy 

Lets have a look at how Tory Hospitals are coming along

[Henry]

1 hour ago, rocket_scientist said:

That's patently untrue. You're trying to portray me as something I'm not. I have never mentioned that I have "wads of cash" because I don't. But you assumed and inferred from the holidays I've had, or the car I drive or the watch I wear or any other shit we talk about over three decades on these forums that I do. You confuse financial stability and serious wealth.

My apologies, must’ve been someone else who mentioned buying two cars in the past couple of months in cash. 

[For Fecks Sake]

1 hour ago, caledonia said:

Did the SNP build it because if the Government in place is blame worthy 

Lets have a look at how Tory Hospitals are coming along

Agreed its a disgrace the cost and timescales quoted however you have also just done what all political parties resort to - "oh but look what the other lot have done" as opposed to dealing with the fucking situation at hand.

As I say all parties indulge in this and its one of the reasons why the general public cannot be arsed with politicians these days. 

[maryhilldon]

6 minutes ago, For Fecks Sake said:

Agreed its a disgrace the cost and timescales quoted however you have also just done what all political parties resort to - "oh but look what the other lot have done" as opposed to dealing with the fucking situation at hand.

As I say all parties indulge in this and its one of the reasons why the general public cannot be arsed with politicians these days. 

More 'whataboutery'  in politics than a Clyde football phone in. 

[The Buzzard]

14 hours ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Scotland could well be an independent nation, but It does very well out of being a devolved nation in the UK.

However, our Holyrood politicians are indeed "too fucking stupid" and their collective record since the advent of Holyrood has been the best advert against separation.

In 20 years the Parliament has produced or achieved nothing. 

In all that time, I could name precious few of its elected members who I had felt was a good orator or whose intellect had impressed me. 

Compared to previous Westminster administration, the parliament actually costs us more for a significantly poorer standard of services.

'Produced or achieved nothing.'.  That's not really true is it?

What about legislation it has passed on the ban on smoking, the construction and building of new infrastructure such as the queensferry crossing and the Borders railway, community empowerment for asset transfers for the common good, freedom of information etc. 

Its not perfect and has its faults but passes around 15-20 new pieces of primary legislation most years, loads of secondary legislation - most of which are too dull to mention - so I don't think you can truthfully say it produces or achieves nothing. 

As for orators, it's all about taste and what fits your agenda I reckon, but over the years there have been excellent parliamentarians across all parties. Admittedly, some very poor ones too. 

[maryhilldon]

15 minutes ago, The Buzzard said:

'Produced or achieved nothing.'.  That's not really true is it?

What about legislation it has passed on the ban on smoking, the construction and building of new infrastructure such as the queensferry crossing and the Borders railway, community empowerment for asset transfers for the common good, freedom of information etc. 

Its not perfect and has its faults but passes around 15-20 new pieces of primary legislation most years, loads of secondary legislation - most of which are too dull to mention - so I don't think you can truthfully say it produces or achieves nothing. 

As for orators, it's all about taste and what fits your agenda I reckon, but over the years there have been excellent parliamentarians across all parties. Admittedly, some very poor ones too. 

Hi Nicola. 

[The Buzzard]

4 minutes ago, maryhilldon said:

Hi Nicola. 

?. I made sure to include legislation introduced by parties in power of different political persuasions before being passed by the Parliament as a whole. Kept my post balanced. 

[manboobs109]

They made a right cunt of that bridge though

[The Buzzard]

6 minutes ago, manboobs109 said:

They made a right cunt of that bridge though

I think we've seen that for whatever reason, the big projects that are undertaken in Scotland all seem to have a high rate of fuck ups and issues.

Edinburgh Trams, the new hospitals in Edinburgh and Glasgow that have recently been built, the AWPR, even the construction of the Parliament, have all had delays and cost overruns. 

Something must go wrong in how all these projects are managed. Not that any of the Executives or Governments were primarily responsible for the day to day management of these during construction. 

[manboobs109]

8 minutes ago, The Buzzard said:

I think we've seen that for whatever reason, the big projects that are undertaken in Scotland all seem to have a high rate of fuck ups and issues.

Edinburgh Trams, the new hospitals in Edinburgh and Glasgow that have recently been built, the AWPR, even the construction of the Parliament, have all had delays and cost overruns. 

Something must go wrong in how all these projects are managed. Not that any of the Executives or Governments were primarily responsible for the day to day management of these during construction. 

Aye you're right, builders are dodgy fuckers in general. 

[The Buzzard]

57 minutes ago, manboobs109 said:

Aye you're right, builders are dodgy fuckers in general. 

No aspersions being cast on the guys actually carrying out the construction (assuming you are maybe in the construction trade of some sort, Moobs!). 

[Henry]

1 hour ago, The Buzzard said:

(assuming you are maybe in the construction trade of some sort, Moobs!)

He empties the jukeboxes and bandits in the pubs of Dundee.

[manboobs109]

Not just Dundee H bomb. My empire stretches to all corners of this land

[Henry]

The Bob Servant of the pub entertainment world. 

[maryhilldon]

German firm that got the tram contract was it not? 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

  

15 hours ago, The Buzzard said:

'Produced or achieved nothing.'.  That's not really true is it?

What about legislation it has passed on the ban on smoking, the construction and building of new infrastructure such as the queensferry crossing and the Borders railway, community empowerment for asset transfers for the common good, freedom of information etc. 

Its not perfect and has its faults but passes around 15-20 new pieces of primary legislation most years, loads of secondary legislation - most of which are too dull to mention - so I don't think you can truthfully say it produces or achieves nothing. 

As for orators, it's all about taste and what fits your agenda I reckon, but over the years there have been excellent parliamentarians across all parties. Admittedly, some very poor ones too. 

You make a decent post.

The bridge has not been a stunning success and is prone to closures, but Ok its been delivered.  Its fundamentally a like for like replacement though - treading water - and so does not represent development of Scotland infrastructure. 

I would concede there has been some minor infrastructure development - the completion of the M8 motorway in the last few years.  At the same time, its an embarrassment that it was not until well into the 21st century that two Scottish cities were fully linked by motorway.  (westminster gets some of the blame for that, but then holyrood is meant to be better than westminster, or so they keep telling us).

Smoking is bad for you, but ultimately I see the smoking ban as an infringement of individual autonomy more than a health drive.  People can smoke if they choose, people can work in a smokey bar if they choose.  There was much which could have been done wrt passive smoking, rather than an outright ban.   Ultimately the ban was easy to deliver - all they really had to do was vote on it - and an example of holyrood glibly following the crowd.

Who would you regard as having been excellent parliamentarians in Holyrood's lifetime so far?     Beyond Alex Salmond - a fine speaker and experienced politician of the westminster breed - I would genuinely be struggling.

I accept there will be minor legislation etc passed which I am unaware of. 

When I said "achieved nothing" I was really referring to health, education and social problems like "sectarianism".  These are the kinds of issues why I voted for the parliament to be created, thinking a scottish focus would be beneficial.   In reality on these topics we have either done nothing or gone significantly backwards, while becoming the highest taxed part of the UK.

I think its important to note that - whether its the bridge, or the M8, or the smoking ban - whatever, the existence of a Scottish Parliament was not essential for any of those projects, and the Scottish Parliament added nothing special or extra to their delivery.   This could all have been delivered the-same-or-better by the Scottish Office, while we paid much less tax.

I remain greatly disappointed by 20 years of Holyrood.

 

 

[something_or_other]

9 hours ago, The Buzzard said:

I think we've seen that for whatever reason, the big projects that are undertaken in Scotland all seem to have a high rate of fuck ups and issues.

 

 

This article I read today offers an insight into why, I would proffer that it starts with the bidding process. and the criteria which acts as a true barrier to entry, it goes to the same firms over and over again, who mainly act as umbrellas for a myriad of sub contractors.

 

Anyway, here is the article 

[manboobs109]

2 hours ago, Bad_Mobby said:

I thought you were a pool table cloth fixer/installer 

 

I can turn my hand to many things

[Clydeside_Sheep]

11 hours ago, The Buzzard said:

I think we've seen that for whatever reason, the big projects that are undertaken in Scotland all seem to have a high rate of fuck ups and issues.

Its down to the public sector - the people are incompetent and completely unaccountable.

Plus, they are spending other peoples money of which there is a constant supply, so they cant really grasp why its bad to waste it.

[The Buzzard]

2 hours ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

  

You make a decent post.

The bridge has not been a stunning success and is prone to closures, but Ok its been delivered.  Its fundamentally a like for like replacement though - treading water - and so does not represent development of Scotland infrastructure. 

I would concede there has been some minor infrastructure development - the completion of the M8 motorway in the last few years.  At the same time, its an embarrassment that it was not until well into the 21st century that two Scottish cities were fully linked by motorway.  (westminster gets some of the blame for that, but then holyrood is meant to be better than westminster, or so they keep telling us).

Smoking is bad for you, but ultimately I see the smoking ban as an infringement of individual autonomy more than a health drive.  People can smoke if they choose, people can work in a smokey bar if they choose.  There was much which could have been done wrt passive smoking, rather than an outright ban.   Ultimately the ban was easy to deliver - all they really had to do was vote on it - and an example of holyrood glibly following the crowd.

Who would you regard as having been excellent parliamentarians in Holyrood's lifetime so far?     Beyond Alex Salmond - a fine speaker and experienced politician of the westminster breed - I would genuinely be struggling.

I accept there will be minor legislation etc passed which I am unaware of. 

When I said "achieved nothing" I was really referring to health, education and social problems like "sectarianism".  These are the kinds of issues why I voted for the parliament to be created, thinking a scottish focus would be beneficial.   In reality on these topics we have either done nothing or gone significantly backwards, while becoming the highest taxed part of the UK.

I think its important to note that - whether its the bridge, or the M8, or the smoking ban - whatever, the existence of a Scottish Parliament was not essential for any of those projects, and the Scottish Parliament added nothing special or extra to their delivery.   This could all have been delivered the-same-or-better by the Scottish Office, while we paid much less tax.

I remain greatly disappointed by 20 years of Holyrood.

 

 

I don't really agree with what you are saying, but at the same time I respect you have your opinion and views on how you see things. I think you simplify the work that goes into passing pieces of legislation such as the smoking ban. Again, that's down to your own viewpoint, so fair enough. 

I do get your point regarding some of the issues you'd like to have seen tackled, but again I'd say that there are numerous pieces of work that's been done to improve health, education etc. Admittedly, we've seen recently how Governments can get things wrong with things like education. It's definitely not perfect for sure!