Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[Redforever86]

We need a right wing Indy party if the SNP are going to keep so far to the left as the last couple of years. 
 

 

[Redforever86]

1 minute ago, BrianFaePerth said:

Sure it would be nice to have a fund to cover fluctuations, but Scotland wouldn’t have and taxes would have had to be raised. Simple economics. No more blaming Westminster.

We raise plenty taxes out with oil. The Barnet formula and all the other stats they use are deeply flawed in England’s favour.

The Brexit deal just fucked us over for the 1,000,000th time and yet heaps of cunts want to be ruled by the Eton elite.

We are a fucking embarrassment. 6 stone 15 year old Hong Kongers will stand up to the Chinese backed police and we can’t even put a cross in a box because we are to scared to stand up for ourselves. 
 

They have about 3 years then I’m fucking leaving and all the subservient fucks can watch their house prices fall and their kids work in Amazon warehouses.

 

[redstrummer]

1 hour ago, Parklife said:

So it's have been good to have managed oil revenues well over the past 40 years and have a fund that could cover fluctuations in the oil price, wouldn't it? 

It'd also be good to be using current oil revenues to invest heavily in the renewables sector and ensure we're at the forefront of that sector. Which, given our geographical advantages, we definitely should be. 

I find the desperation from folk like you ("Scotland would fuck it all up somehow") to slag off Scotland utterly bizarre. People who've been browbeaten in to thinking their countrymen are somehow less capable than those in every other country on earth. 

 

Spot on min 

[For Fecks Sake]

1 hour ago, Parklife said:

It'd also be good to be using current oil revenues to invest heavily in the renewables sector and ensure we're at the forefront of that sector. Which, given our geographical advantages, we definitely should be. 

Totally agree with that but the recent BiFab debacle was a major blow to the progress of this.

[Henry]

1 hour ago, Redforever86 said:

They have about 3 years then I’m fucking leaving and all the subservient fucks can watch their house prices fall and their kids work in Amazon warehouses.

Didn't realise your leaving would be such a driving force in house prices, please stay min!

[Clydeside_Sheep]

1 hour ago, Dynamo said:

End of the day the economy will expand and contract forever. Basing a decision on today's oil price or industry is short sighted. Having the right people in charge will help a country, wherever you are in the world. 

For me it boils down to should the people in Scotland make decisions for Scotland and is that for the best for the country? Yes I think it is. Why would anyone actively promote being subservient to somewhere else? 

Why are English Unionists so keen to keep Scotland though? Always find it remarkable how there's never a logical reason to keep such an apparent drain on resources. 

I'm not an active SNP fan at all. They're simply a vehicle for independence. 

The best thing for independence would be a Labour and Conservative party for Indy, totally separate from their Westminster handlers. 

Currently we have a Scottish Parliament making the decisions and poor trends in education, health and other matters.  Clearly we have the wrong people in Parliament.

I don't agree with your starting points for how you view the union:

-  it isn't "subservience"  to be in the UK, Scotland runs itself (poorly at present, it has to be said) but co-operates in wider areas where it is to our benefit, for example currency, foriegn policy and defence.  We can clearly see the benefits to us, most recently with Brexit.  Then UK is smashing the vaccination race while the EU blunders around - the EU didn't even let individual nations develop their own vaccines, it wanted all control for itself.  And despite Sturgeon saying the fishing deal was "terrible" and rejecting it, on the 1st January - the very first day post Brexit - a Marine Scotland patrol boat used new Scottish powers to intercept an Irish fishing boat trying to cast its nets in our waters.  So, it cant be that terrible, given how quickly the new powers are being used.

- "English Unionists" don't own Scotland and so cant "keep" it.  English Unionists want to preserve the Union because, like all Unionists, they are clear sighted and can see the benefits of the most succesful political Union ever.  Scotland offers the UK lots - natural and renweable resources, a fishing fleet, ship-building expertise, an oil refinery complex, several important ports, military bases, troops, airports, top rank Universities -   just as the UK offers Scotland lots. Indeed, much of what Scotland offers come from the Union itself: for example, an independent Scotland would easily lose the BAe shipyards on the Clyde, for lack of orders, and Scotland's military status would dwindle to tokenism. 

- why do you want a vehicle for independence, when you also speak out against subservience?  Scotland in the UK has far more powers and autonomy than would Scotland in the EU.  The UK doesn't tell Scotland how to spend its money, like the EU would.  The UK wouldn't tell us we cant "do science stuff", like the EU would (like it has done with the vaccines).  In the EU, our waters would be EU, not Scottish, waters and Scotland would have no right to police and manage them, as we do just now - as per the 1st Jan incident.  The EU wouldn't grant us £2,000 extra spending money per head, like the UK does.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

1 hour ago, Parklife said:

 

I think a softening of their stance on Indy by Scottish Labour would be a huge vote winner for them too. 

How can you soften your stance on a binary matter, surely its either one thing or the other?

Also, UK Labour cant win without Scottish Labour.

[Bluto10]

1 hour ago, Redforever86 said:

We raise plenty taxes out with oil. The Barnet formula and all the other stats they use are deeply flawed in England’s favour.

The Brexit deal just fucked us over for the 1,000,000th time and yet heaps of cunts want to be ruled by the Eton elite.

 

it’ll be the fettes elite then, if you get your wish.

 

you’re wasting your bloody time min.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

21 hours ago, Bad_Mobby said:

^ C_S is actually Mickey Gove 

A fine Aberdonian man!  <Muttering in doric etc>

[Parklife]

Just now, Clydeside_Sheep said:

How can you soften your stance on a binary matter, surely its either one thing the another? 
 

You can have no firm position and allow the parties MSP's to support & campaign for either side. 

Just now, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Also, UK Labour cant win without Scottish Labour.

They can. How many times have Scottish MP's swung an election for Labour? 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

33 minutes ago, For Fecks Sake said:

Totally agree with that but the recent BiFab debacle was a major blow to the progress of this.

BiFab is the prime example of "SNP Promises vs SNP delivery".

Wind Turbines now come to Scotland from (I think) Korea, instead of being built here (think of the Carbon footprint, ironically). 

Another fine scheme brought to you by the Holyrood Lobotomy Unit.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

1 minute ago, Parklife said:

You can have no firm position and allow the parties MSP's to support & campaign for either side. 

They can. How many times have Scottish MP's swung an election for Labour? 

Ok, but i would say the SNP already have the nebulous / ethereal political positions firmly wrapped up.  Eg:

Q: How will an independent Scotland address its significant funding gap, tax rises or service cuts?

A: We can make other choices.

Q: Yes, I am asking for an example of what they might be?

A: We can make other choices.

And I thought it was pretty much on tablets of stone that labour needs to win in scotland, to win in the UK. 

[Dynamo]

18 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Currently we have a Scottish Parliament making the decisions and poor trends in education, health and other matters.  Clearly we have the wrong people in Parliament.

I don't agree with your starting points for how you view the union:

-  it isn't "subservience"  to be in the UK, Scotland runs itself (poorly at present, it has to be said) but co-operates in wider areas where it is to our benefit, for example currency, foriegn policy and defence.  We can clearly see the benefits to us, most recently with Brexit.  Then UK is smashing the vaccination race while the EU blunders around - the EU didn't even let individual nations develop their own vaccines, it wanted all control for itself.  And despite Sturgeon saying the fishing deal was "terrible" and rejecting it, on the 1st January - the very first day post Brexit - a Marine Scotland patrol boat used new Scottish powers to intercept an Irish fishing boat trying to cast its nets in our waters.  So, it cant be that terrible, given how quickly the new powers are being used.

- "English Unionists" don't own Scotland and so cant "keep" it.  English Unionists want to preserve the Union because, like all Unionists, they are clear sighted and can see the benefits of the most succesful political Union ever.  Scotland offers the UK lots - natural and renweable resources, a fishing fleet, ship-building expertise, an oil refinery complex, several important ports, military bases, troops, airports, top rank Universities -   just as the UK offers Scotland lots. Indeed, much of what Scotland offers come from the Union itself: for example, an independent Scotland would easily lose the BAe shipyards on the Clyde, for lack of orders, and Scotland's military status would dwindle to tokenism. 

- why do you want a vehicle for independence, when you also speak out against subservience?  Scotland in the UK has far more powers and autonomy than would Scotland in the EU.  The UK doesn't tell Scotland how to spend its money, like the EU would.  The UK wouldn't tell us we cant "do science stuff", like the EU would (like it has done with the vaccines).  In the EU, our waters would be EU, not Scottish, waters and Scotland would have no right to police and manage them, as we do just now - as per the 1st Jan incident.  The EU wouldn't grant us £2,000 extra spending money per head, like the UK does.

We have a Scottish Parliament making decisions on DEVOLVED matters. Whether the current incumbents are doing a good job or not is irrelevant to a long-term independence strategy. My view is the SNP will be gone post independence. 

It is subservience, in my opinion.

Is defence that important (for 5m population countries in Europe. lIke Ireland/Denmark/Norway)? Re foreign policy, Scotland can set it's own agenda, like normal countries do. I understand that the war nonces in England love the idea of the UK being some sort of grand power in the world. Those days are gone. I don't see it as important, certainly not in Scotland. 

The UK is not smashing the vaccination race. UK regulators approved the vaccine on an emergency basis. Let's see how it's rolled out shall we? Israel is smashing it.

Not once did I mention Scotland in the EU. But if that's what the people of Scotland vote for, then so be it. I'm not a fish shagger like a lot of Brexiters seem to be, it's a small industry, I couldn't care less if vessels shipped in UK/Scottish/EU waters, much like the fish swimming in them. Again, military. Don't have a hard on for that either I'm afraid. Surely being part of a club such as the EU, you sign up to their terms. So if Scotland voted to join, then they'd have to pay their way, as per the EU rules. Them's the breaks. 

[Parklife]

23 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

 

And I thought it was pretty much on tablets of stone that labour needs to win in scotland, to win in the UK. 

How many times have Scottish MP's swung an election for Labour? 

[Redforever86]

1 hour ago, Henry said:

Didn't realise your leaving would be such a driving force in house prices, please stay min!

It would be the choice to stay in a terrible union with a country full of idiots and a declining economy. 

Fuck all to do with me. 

[Redforever86]

Manufacturing, oil, "renewables (normally in regards to wind turbines and fuck all else), are all words I hear often from both sides. 

What the fuck about automation, AI, robotics, natural resources, religion (or lack thereof), global warming and it's effects on a multiple things including immigration. 

I think we are all being short sighted if we just give a fuck about being able to lose less oil jobs due to a shift to making wind turbines for 20-30 years. 

But then more folk are concerned about what Audi they are going to lease next. 

This Union has been shite for 300 years and will be shite for another 300 years regardless. 

[manboobs109]

30 minutes ago, Parklife said:

How many times have Scottish MP's swung an election for Labour? 

Impossible to say Parky. Elections don't work like that. 

[afc_blockhead]

2 hours ago, Parklife said:

So it's have been good to have managed oil revenues well over the past 40 years and have a fund that could cover fluctuations in the oil price, wouldn't it? 

It'd also be good to be using current oil revenues to invest heavily in the renewables sector and ensure we're at the forefront of that sector. Which, given our geographical advantages, we definitely should be. 

I find the desperation from folk like you ("Scotland would fuck it all up somehow") to slag off Scotland utterly bizarre. People who've been browbeaten in to thinking their countrymen are somehow less capable than those in every other country on earth. 

 

I find the desperation from folk like you to blindly convince yourself that Scotland would be some successful powerhouse seemingly on the basis of not being chained to Westminster bizarre. 

Despite all the evidence of how badly Scotland has run its own devolved areas and all the evidence around how much Scotland does rely on being part of the "union" to fund itself (eg over 40% of the Scottish working populations wages were paid by Westminster for months on end).

Also Scotland wants to re-join the EU, which makes no sense in the independence argument. Every major criticism you have of Westminster exists in the EU. Scotland would likely never get in anyway. A huge deficit / no currency and the likes of Spain not wishing to give the likes of Catalonia any ideas are 3 major and obvious reasons that stops that.

Blind optimism on the basis of the people running everything having the same accent as you is borderline retarded.

[Parklife]

2 minutes ago, afc_blockhead said:

I find the desperation from folk like you to blindly convince yourself that Scotland would be some successful powerhouse seemingly on the basis of not being chained to Westminster bizarre. 

I don't think that though. You just made that up because you've nothing of substance to say. 

[Redforever86]

13 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

Where would you go? China?

Fuck knows. 

If the bird hasn't done the sensible thing and binned me she could probably get a decent job and entry for us into plenty places.

I quite fancy Denmark, Canada, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, USA, Delft.

If I'm alone, probably just pack up my bags and wonder about till I find somewhere I like.

Where would you go?

[Parklife]

31 minutes ago, manboobs109 said:

Impossible to say Parky. Elections don't work like that. 

How so?

[Redforever86]

3 minutes ago, Sooper-hanz said:

Stayed in China for 9 months . Wouldn’t go back . No ta. 

Which part and when? 

[Misers Hill]

24 minutes ago, Redforever86 said:

Which part and when? 

He wis still in his mas chuff?

[shut up meg]

1 hour ago, Sooper-hanz said:

Stayed in China for 9 months . Wouldn’t go back . No ta. 

I was in the Shanghai area for 4 or 5 weeks about 10 years ago.

The food was terrible and the air quality was shite.

Based on my limited time in that particular part of the country, I wouldn't rush back.

[Jocky Balboa]

As I highlighted a while back, there is a problem with some key unionist arguments. If Better Together had started out in 2012 acknowledging that, in theory, there is no good reason why Scotland couldn't be a successful independent country on par with similar sized nations (even forgetting Norway, why not consider Finland, Denmark, Austria or the likes?) then proceeded to make a positive case for why the status quo should prevail, they might not have come within a whisker of losing.

Fast forward to 2021 and the same conundrum is prevalent, whereby many argue the UK is "the most successful political union in history" while simultaneously arguing Scotland, Wales and NI are impoverished backwaters that could not survive without the generosity and expertise of England. Put simply, the most successful union (historically that may have been true, but since the Suez crisis it has been in gradual freefall) would have every member state punch considerably above its weight, so why are Wales and Northern Ireland two of the poorest states in Western Europe? The former was once a proud industrial nation, now an economic wasteland, while the latter was once the industrial heartland of Ireland, light years ahead of the breakaway Free State, but since the 60's has fallen further and further behind its Republican neighbour.

I therefore ask, rhetorically, why unionists can't make up their mind whether the UK is the greatest union in history, or a failed state which has created a London-centric bubble and impoverished 3 of its 4 members? It can't be both.

It. Can't. Be. Both.

[Henry]

[Clydeside_Sheep]

8 hours ago, Jocky Balboa said:

As I highlighted a while back, there is a problem with some key unionist arguments. If Better Together had started out in 2012 acknowledging that, in theory, there is no good reason why Scotland couldn't be a successful independent country on par with similar sized nations (even forgetting Norway, why not consider Finland, Denmark, Austria or the likes?) then proceeded to make a positive case for why the status quo should prevail, they might not have come within a whisker of losing.

Fast forward to 2021 and the same conundrum is prevalent, whereby many argue the UK is "the most successful political union in history" while simultaneously arguing Scotland, Wales and NI are impoverished backwaters that could not survive without the generosity and expertise of England. Put simply, the most successful union (historically that may have been true, but since the Suez crisis it has been in gradual freefall) would have every member state punch considerably above its weight, so why are Wales and Northern Ireland two of the poorest states in Western Europe? The former was once a proud industrial nation, now an economic wasteland, while the latter was once the industrial heartland of Ireland, light years ahead of the breakaway Free State, but since the 60's has fallen further and further behind its Republican neighbour.

I therefore ask, rhetorically, why unionists can't make up their mind whether the UK is the greatest union in history, or a failed state which has created a London-centric bubble and impoverished 3 of its 4 members? It can't be both.

It. Can't. Be. Both.

Hi Jocky,

Austria has nearly twice the population of Scotland and the Austrians are really Germans to boot.

The UK is the most successful union in history.  Not only in what it achieved in the days of Empire, (which was truly stunning), but also in its general contribution to the world.  Principally however, because it has created a peaceful, stable and prosperous place to live for us all.

The last pitched conventional battle on UK soil was close to 300 years ago (minor Policing actions in Ireland do not count).  In many other places, they are still patching up the shrapnel scarred walls (Germany) or stirring the acrimony (Spain) from their more recent conflicts.  Hell, look at the Balkans in the 90s, if you want an  example of an unsuccessful union. Who could imagine something like the Balkan war here?  Even the thought is ridiculous.

Wales and NI do not really count in the Scots context, but I would argue the circumstances behind their situation are clear enough.  For decades, the writing was on the wall for King Coal, a dirty polluting fuel - so that was it for the Welsh and their mining.  NI is a money-pit for security reasons with decades of terrorism and social division responsible for its decline.  Its previous success was built on an apartheid style society, which obviously had to go.  Who in their right mind would want to invest there, with such a dysfunctional society and (though much improved) the threat of violence never too far away?

Scotland doesn't need England, but does well through partnership and friendship with England - a great nation and a great people imo.  Much better than our faux-friends in Brussels, who would stab you in the back as soon as look at you. 

[Redforever86]

14 hours ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Hi Jocky,

Austria has nearly twice the population of Scotland and the Austrians are really Germans to boot.

The UK is the most successful union in history.  Not only in what it achieved in the days of Empire, (which was truly stunning), but also in its general contribution to the world.  Principally however, because it has created a peaceful, stable and prosperous place to live for us all.

The last pitched conventional battle on UK soil was close to 300 years ago (minor Policing actions in Ireland do not count).  In many other places, they are still patching up the shrapnel scarred walls (Germany) or stirring the acrimony (Spain) from their more recent conflicts.  Hell, look at the Balkans in the 90s, if you want an  example of an unsuccessful union. Who could imagine something like the Balkan war here?  Even the thought is ridiculous.

Wales and NI do not really count in the Scots context, but I would argue the circumstances behind their situation are clear enough.  For decades, the writing was on the wall for King Coal, a dirty polluting fuel - so that was it for the Welsh and their mining.  NI is a money-pit for security reasons with decades of terrorism and social division responsible for its decline.  Its previous success was built on an apartheid style society, which obviously had to go.  Who in their right mind would want to invest there, with such a dysfunctional society and (though much improved) the threat of violence never too far away?

Scotland doesn't need England, but does well through partnership and friendship with England - a great nation and a great people imo.  Much better than our faux-friends in Brussels, who would stab you in the back as soon as look at you. 

Sounds like we need to leave the UK to stop the Norn Irish and fucking Welsh from dragging us down.

Shame about the fine English chaps but needs must. Tally ho.

[shut up meg]

1 hour ago, Sooper-hanz said:

I hated the general vibe of the place and the food was fucking ghastly. 

On top of the food and air quality being shite, the driving standards, music on the radio and TV was shite and the Internet was monitored and as I was there for work, I had to be careful on what I did or drink.

Also the manky bastards were always spitting. 

[maryhilldon]

19 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

 Like the guys who use porn.

Are there guys who don't!?