Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[Studebaker-90]

41 minutes ago, NEM said:

If Salmond came back into the fold, got rid of the boot and moved the SNP to the centre (and ditched the far left woke nonsense) I’d be far more inclined to vote for the SNP and/or independence. 
 

Absolutely no chance under the fruit loops currently leading the charge 

The thing about auld Alec is that he’s a very good politician and an inspiring leader, no matter what your political stance. Nicola is so unlikeable nobody but her cult followers can tolerate her. 

[Parklife]

49 minutes ago, NEM said:

If Salmond came back into the fold, got rid of the boot and moved the SNP to the centre (and ditched the far left woke nonsense) I’d be far more inclined to vote for the SNP and/or independence. 
 

Absolutely no chance under the fruit loops currently leading the charge 

That's like saying you wouldn't vote for the union because Richard Leonard is shit. 

[NEM]

36 minutes ago, Parklife said:

That's like saying you wouldn't vote for the union because Richard Leonard is shit. 

No it isn’t. I won’t vote yes next time if we’re going to have the loony left running the show 

[NEM]

44 minutes ago, Studebaker-90 said:

The thing about auld Alec is that he’s a very good politician and an inspiring leader, no matter what your political stance. Nicola is so unlikeable nobody but her cult followers can tolerate her. 

Yip

[NEM]

2 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

But a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP.

Never said it was 

[Parklife]

24 minutes ago, NEM said:

No it isn’t. I won’t vote yes next time if we’re going to have the loony left running the show 

We'll have whoever we vote for running the country.

"Loony left" ?

[Ten Caat]

10 minutes ago, Sooper-hanz said:

I don't agree. If Nicola had been head of the party at the time of the independence referendum it would have been a majority 'yes' vote. 

Nope it was conducted at the wrong time. 

Rightly or wrongly there is a section of the older generation born just before or during the second world war who would never vote for independence. They witnessed the birth of the welfare state and the NHS. They saw their children get free university education and their parents get free long term care in dedicated NHS hospitals when they became too infirm to look after themselves at home. The UK gave them all this. No matter how good the argument for independence was...they were never going to buy into it. However they are dying off at a fair rate of knots now (another perk they got.....seeing their life expectancy rise from their late 60s at the time they were born to what it is now....81). And they are being replaced by 16 year old voters who very much do buy into the indy dream. 

It also helps that Labour in Scotland are now a total joke. Leonard is the worst political leader of any party here in Scotland or UK wide that I can recall. 

[Redforever86]

The "problem" was simply that we let immigrants vote, I'm not against immigration in the slightest. But the eastern Europeans were scared to vote for the Union to stay in the EU and the English (and other UK outwith Scotland) born were always going to vote against it in the majority. 

Couldn't give a fuck if you think everyone who moves somewhere should have a vote, I wouldn't move to Iran and expect them to tolerate me voting for a Christian republic etc. 

[Redforever86]

What fud -1 that? I expect a counter argument. 

[maryhilldon]

If the voting criteria was 'Scottish'  instead of 'live in Scotland',  it would've been a clear YES.  Apparently about 500k non-Scottish Brits live here,  mainly English,  and the vast majority of them are pro-union.  

[Redforever86]

Exactly it's like asking turkeys to vote for xmas. Complete joke.

[The beard of mcinnes]

14 hours ago, NEM said:

Never said it was 

No, but you are correct to be wary if their brand of politics isn't for you.

Who will be negotiating Scotland's exit under Independence...to think it won't be the SNP front bench (as is) would be naïve in the extreme.

1st chair will be Michael Russell, they might try to make it look like is cross party by bringing in Harvie or Greer, but on the basis that the Greens have just hounded out one of their best in Wightman, a principled and bright man, for saying let' slow down on the whole trans thing. They would be firmly on the 'loony left' as you put it, side of things.

[The beard of mcinnes]

13 hours ago, maryhilldon said:

If the voting criteria was 'Scottish'  instead of 'live in Scotland',  it would've been a clear YES.  Apparently about 500k non-Scottish Brits live here,  mainly English,  and the vast majority of them are pro-union.  

Would you include 'Scots' living elsewhere in the UK or even further afield?

 

How do you quantify Scottish?

[NEM]

14 hours ago, Parklife said:

We'll have whoever we vote for running the country.

"Loony left" ?

I don’t think it’s a huge jump to believe the SNP would be in charge to begin with if a Yes vote was within the next few years.

How else would you describe transvestites being invited into schools? 

[The beard of mcinnes]

13 hours ago, Ten Caat said:

Nope it was conducted at the wrong time. 

Rightly or wrongly there is a section of the older generation born just before or during the second world war who would never vote for independence. They witnessed the birth of the welfare state and the NHS. They saw their children get free university education and their parents get free long term care in dedicated NHS hospitals when they became too infirm to look after themselves at home. The UK gave them all this. No matter how good the argument for independence was...they were never going to buy into it. However they are dying off at a fair rate of knots now (another perk they got.....seeing their life expectancy rise from their late 60s at the time they were born to what it is now....81). And they are being replaced by 16 year old voters who very much do buy into the indy dream. 

It also helps that Labour in Scotland are now a total joke. Leonard is the worst political leader of any party here in Scotland or UK wide that I can recall. 

It was the SNP that wanted it at that time.

And since the Economics of the Whit Paper were based on the previous 5-10 years oil price, is obvious why.

 

[NEM]

7 minutes ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

No, but you are correct to be wary if their brand of politics isn't for you.

Who will be negotiating Scotland's exit under Independence...to think it won't be the SNP front bench (as is) would be naïve in the extreme.

1st chair will be Michael Russell, they might try to make it look like is cross party by bringing in Harvie or Greer, but on the basis that the Greens have just hounded out one of their best in Wightman, a principled and bright man, for saying let' slow down on the whole trans thing. They would be firmly on the 'loony left' as you put it, side of things.

Yip spot on 

[The beard of mcinnes]

Biggest thing for me in the whole independence 'debate', is that in 2014 there was (obviously still is to a great degree) a huge element of leaping in to the dark, and as with all these things those proposing the leap were hugely optimistic on costs and timescales 18 months to negotiate the exit and 150m or so to set up all the institutions was pie in the sky stuff.

We've now had Brexit and see how complex these things are (those of us who have ever had to deal with large scale negotiations or dealt with cross border trade understood that already but hey...) so we now know or should know what is involved.

So let' be realistic in setting out what it will mean, put the correct infrastructure in place to ensure that Scotland has what it will need in place, with the hope that this will create a smooth transition, as Scotland is much more intrinsically linked to the rest of the UK than the UK was to Europe.

I'd also advocate a 2 step process, 1-to start the gun as it were, ie a vote to leave the UK. 2-Once negotiations have concluded and the deal agreed and properly costed institutions etc are set out. A 2nd vote to ratify and accept as a nation the agreements in place.

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

36 minutes ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

I'd also advocate a 2 step process, 1-to start the gun as it were, ie a vote to leave the UK. 2-Once negotiations have concluded and the deal agreed and properly costed institutions etc are set out. A 2nd vote to ratify and accept as a nation the agreements in place.

 

Doubt the rUK would buy into that, its fucking them about so the Scots can flip flop changing their mind on matters which affect everyone.

In the Brexit context,  2nd vote was only ever suggested as a means of over-turning the result, just as the EU tries to every time.

Still waiting on someone to advocate even a single, clear benefit from independence (there are none) - it seems like a major self inflicted blow, just so people can get tartan passports with gaelic words which they cant read.

 

[Henry]

2 hours ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Still waiting on someone to advocate even a single, clear benefit from independence

It would devastate you. 

[Bluto10]

plolitics

 

come on lads. wake up, eh

[Henry]

2 minutes ago, Bluto10 said:

plolitics

Putting some lols into politics there. 

[Bluto10]

25 minutes ago, Henry said:

Putting some lols into politics there. 

aye afc chats very own hislop 

[Henry]

Shaka? 

[redone]

4 hours ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

Would you include 'Scots' living elsewhere in the UK or even further afield?

 

How do you quantify Scottish?

I’ve never really understood the rationale behind any ex-pats being entitled to vote. And that applies to UK elections as well as Indie and Brexit referendums.  I don’t see why people who aren’t ordinarily resident in the country and aren’t going to be affected by the outcome are entitled to vote.

The basic principle as far as I’m concerned is that an individual should only be eligible to vote if they’re liable to pay Income Tax in the country affected by the vote.

[Bluto10]

2 minutes ago, redone said:

I’ve never really understood the rationale behind any ex-pats being entitled to vote. And that applies to UK elections as well as Indie and Brexit referendums.  I don’t see why people who aren’t ordinarily resident in the country and aren’t going to be affected by the outcome are entitled to vote.

The basic principle as far as I’m concerned is that an individual should only be eligible to vote if they’re liable to pay Income Tax in the country affected by the vote.

yeah makes sense for 4year team govt elections. 
 

but not permanent ones like indy \ brexit

sone folk live away temporarily 

likewise short term incomes shouldn’t have long term say in the matter

[Henry]

^^^
Politics

LOL

[The Buzzard]

7 hours ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

No, but you are correct to be wary if their brand of politics isn't for you.

Who will be negotiating Scotland's exit under Independence...to think it won't be the SNP front bench (as is) would be naïve in the extreme.

1st chair will be Michael Russell, they might try to make it look like is cross party by bringing in Harvie or Greer, but on the basis that the Greens have just hounded out one of their best in Wightman, a principled and bright man, for saying let' slow down on the whole trans thing. They would be firmly on the 'loony left' as you put it, side of things.

I'm sure Mike Russell retires this year. 

[alscotoz]

9 hours ago, redone said:

I’ve never really understood the rationale behind any ex-pats being entitled to vote. And that applies to UK elections as well as Indie and Brexit referendums.  I don’t see why people who aren’t ordinarily resident in the country and aren’t going to be affected by the outcome are entitled to vote.

The basic principle as far as I’m concerned is that an individual should only be eligible to vote if they’re liable to pay Income Tax in the country affected by the vote.

No problem with this

[Henry]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/independent-scotland-could-be-top-of-the-list-to-join-the-eu?fbclid=IwAR1k3I56RsInbGvC0KLIVn80gZFG8y-tF9_ksI1Ld9JpUy5ablnw_ADypiI

[maryhilldon]

Always good to hear the thoughts of 'an expert'.