Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[Clydeside_Sheep]

  

4 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

Bottom line, we don't agree. Please allow me to hold a different view from you. It's really fucking annoying how religious people try to force their versions of reality on the rest of us. It's ok to debate points arising out of an exchange. It's a pain in the arse when no effective communication is possible by reason of one or more of the parties being blindly faithful to a particular doctrine or dogma thereby making listening impossible.

FFS - that was, like, my first dive into the subject, a discussion you had engaged with in my absence.  I certainly didn't deny you a right to hold a different view - see how I tolerate your rubbish on most other topics.

But this quoted part was enlightening and I think I get where you are coming from.

Your agnostic self likes to explore concepts and things and so dislikes encountering a very certain view, which naturally discounts alternatives.  This comes across as boorish and "like talking to a brick wall". 

That's interesting and I think that disconnect comes from two points of view engaging from a very different position. 

Of course I am very certain, if I was not I could hardly call it faith.  And this is a state of being, rather than an ongoing decision or continuous effort.

I like a debate but I cant not be certain.  Who would die on the hill of uncertainty?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

3 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

This is only your interpretation. There are many other possibilities, some of which would offend you.

Its not even an interpretation, its only acknowledging reality: history shows that in every place, era and culture there have been religions, juts like there is always music, literature, art etc.

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

6 minutes ago, maryhilldon said:

That doesn't mean you're born with an innate belief in god.  That just means as far back as we can evidence it people have been born into a world where religion already existed. If you weren't indoctrinated as a child,  you wouldn't even consider the concept I don't think. 

I think the evidence shows clearly that its natural for human beings to wonder about and seek God.  Sometimes in history we have seen this manifest in ways that reflect the ignorance of the time, but it would be a mistake to write them all off on that basis.  If one bottle of wine tasted like pish, you wouldn't condemn all wine on that basis.

I strongly disagree that people would not consider the concept without some outside influence.  On the contrary.  Man has been so successful over 1000s of years precisely because he *does* think about things - and his own origins are surely among the most fundamental things to wonder about.

[Simply Red]

31 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Ive never encountered anyone (of any stance) giving that angle any credence. 

There's a lot of nonsense out there.  For example, the Christian "IHS" (a monogram meaning "Jesus") is linked to the Egyptian "IHS" seemingly meaning Horus: yet the monogram is demonstrably of Christian Greek, not pagan egyptian origin.

I dont know much about an egyptian trinity, but I wouldnt rush to conclude they were copies simply because 2 peoples each have a group of 3 things. 

If a religion already existed, why would it need to be "re done"?  Surely the people of the time would object and have said "wait, you just copied that off the egyptians".

A catholic said:

Marie Sinclair, Countess of Caithness, in her 1876 book Old Truths in a New Light, states: "It is generally, although erroneously, supposed that the doctrine of the Trinity is of Christian origin. Nearly every nation of antiquity possessed a similar doctrine.[The early Catholic theologian] St. Jerome testifies unequivocally, 'All the ancient nations believed in the Trinity'" (p. 382).

[Clydeside_Sheep]

6 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

True that there was religion. Not true that this proves man's "innate" search for God.

Well, that's what religion is, man's effort to know God.

Even if all the evidence showed was that people were vulnerable to scams in all times and places - they would only be getting scammed because they have a innate need to sate.

[frankie_mac's_4]

10 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Its not even an interpretation, its only acknowledging reality: history shows that in every place, era and culture there have been religions, juts like there is always music, literature, art etc.

 

Another crock of shite

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I am going to make tea before bed, we should perhaps make another thread rather than continue this here (if anyone wants to go on lol).

[frankie_mac's_4]

A cursory view of history shows that the construct of deity figures was introduced entirely by organised religions at the advent of urbanised societies after the agricultural revolution. Prior to this there is no historical record of reverence to God figures.

Spiritualist belief systems are believed to have been prevalent among hunter gatherer societies as were they in relatively modern non urbanised societies. Its patently shite to claim humanity has searched for connection to deity figures through its entire history - its been spiritualist based for the majority of its history

[maryhilldon]

18 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

I think the evidence shows clearly that its natural for human beings to wonder about and seek God.  Sometimes in history we have seen this manifest in ways that reflect the ignorance of the time, but it would be a mistake to write them all off on that basis.  If one bottle of wine tasted like pish, you wouldn't condemn all wine on that basis.

I strongly disagree that people would not consider the concept without some outside influence.  On the contrary.  Man has been so successful over 1000s of years precisely because he *does* think about things - and his own origins are surely among the most fundamental things to wonder about.

People are curious and inquisitive,  about all manner of things. Being curious about how the world came into existence isn't the same as believing in a god. Every culture has drank alcohol,  does that mean you are born with an innate liking for alcohol?  Of course not,  you're a product of your environment. 

[Redforever86]

53 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

A historical fact.  Look at:

- the aztecs with their panoply of Gods (even openly copying other peoples Gods) which they would try to please with human sacrifices

- various native American religions

- pagan beliefs: norse mythology, roman and greek gods

- hinduism / eastern mantras

- arbrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Thats a good few 1000 years worth anyway.  Just with those few examples, it shows religion - an effort to know God - occurs among all people, across the globe, in all times.

If it is not innate then that is remarkable set of coincidences.

 

Firstly you can’t state that all citizens of those societies believed in god just that the majority “claimed” too. Religion is a great system for control and it’s beneficial for many to use it and proclaim to believe in it for various social and economic reasons.

Secondly it’s quite simple that when you don’t understand things a higher being is an easy way to convince yourself you do.

As science progressed (and continues to) more and more people seen believing in a god figure was ridiculous.

This shift was always going to be gradual due to a fear of change and love of tradition but it will continue. 

[maryhilldon]

53 minutes ago, Bad_Mobby said:

Every normal person knows that “God” is aliens 

all the rubbish about seeing God in the sky in the bible - aliens 

fucking religious idiots 

Chariots Of The Gods.  I hear you Mobz. 

[caledonia]

9 hours ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

What version?

On what grounds do you consider yourself qualified to reject Christianity?

Always find it funny that a person who thinks Scotland is the only country in the world that cant do anything but believes in an invisible guy in the sky should get any respect.

 

[Poodler]

Sky news currently tearing into the SNP after receiving some emails from them 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/19/2021 at 12:22 AM, maryhilldon said:

People are curious and inquisitive,  about all manner of things. Being curious about how the world came into existence isn't the same as believing in a god. Every culture has drank alcohol,  does that mean you are born with an innate liking for alcohol?  Of course not,  you're a product of your environment. 

Sorry that is incorrect, alcohol was far from universal, prior to globalism.

To say nothing of Islamic nations, even today some cultures (Indian / asians) struggle with alcohol because its relatively new to them.

Whereas people of european descent have bodies with enzymes which can process alcohol easily - because we have been drinking it for 100s or 1000s of years - other people do not have that capability and so find alcohol absolutely devastating to their system.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/19/2021 at 12:11 AM, rocket_scientist said:

It is impossible to debate with you. Your presumptions are offensive and your interpretations are rigid.

These words of yours were when I should have switched off: -

I was discussing with others, not you.

Your insult was noted, ignored but a few minutes later, on top of further rigidly-and wrongly-held presumptions, they were a further sign (from above) that effective and meaningful communication between us on religion is impossible and would only be counterproductive. Your mind is too fixed. Your maps can't change.

So, basically, you dont want to talk about it because I wont let you win a debate?

And complaining about fixed minds would suggest you are open to persuasion?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/19/2021 at 12:19 AM, frankie_mac's_4 said:

A cursory view of history shows that the construct of deity figures was introduced entirely by organised religions at the advent of urbanised societies after the agricultural revolution. Prior to this there is no historical record of reverence to God figures.

Spiritualist belief systems are believed to have been prevalent among hunter gatherer societies as were they in relatively modern non urbanised societies. Its patently shite to claim humanity has searched for connection to deity figures through its entire history - its been spiritualist based for the majority of its history

Patent nonsense.

The Egyptians had Gods, for example, considerably prior to the agricultural revolution and Christianity had been present in the UK for centuries prior to that period.

[Henry]

15 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

other people do not have that capability and so find alcohol absolutely devastating to their system.

@Bluto10

#Groningen

[NEM]

8 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Patent nonsense.

The Egyptians had Gods, for example, considerably prior to the agricultural revolution and Christianity had been present in the UK for centuries prior to that period.

There not something like 3000 different human "Gods"?

But only yours is real?

Surely that should tell you it's a heap of shite?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/19/2021 at 12:34 AM, Redforever86 said:

Firstly you can’t state that all citizens of those societies believed in god just that the majority “claimed” too. Religion is a great system for control and it’s beneficial for many to use it and proclaim to believe in it for various social and economic reasons.

Secondly it’s quite simple that when you don’t understand things a higher being is an easy way to convince yourself you do.

As science progressed (and continues to) more and more people seen believing in a god figure was ridiculous.

This shift was always going to be gradual due to a fear of change and love of tradition but it will continue. 

I didn't make any claims about individuals, only observed that religion has occurred in all times, places and cultures.

I acknowledged before that some religions previously were limited by the ignorance of the time, but Christianity is mainly about how to live (and die) as opposed to a convenient trope to explain the unknown.

And given the Catholic Church has made the single most hefty contribution to the advancement of science in human history, the manufactured portrayal of religious people as being simple jars with reality.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

2 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

 I felt you were unable to understand where I was coming from,

But just the other day I posted to say I thought I could appreciate your point of view (and I really thought I did).

On this topic, I will strongly advocate the Catholic faith and rubbish everything else - that's no more rigid or inflexible than someone who takes the view its all rubbish.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:47 AM, caledonia said:

 a person who thinks Scotland is the only country in the world that cant do anything

No unionist I am aware of has ever said that.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

14 minutes ago, NEM said:

There not something like 3000 different human "Gods"?

But only yours is real?

Surely that should tell you it's a heap of shite?

I have no idea how many false Gods people have created, a good few I should imagine.

A logical analysis of the word "God" indicates that there can only be one of them.

This touches on something that RS said the other day, his discomfort about people thinking they had got it all right, whereas others were all wrong (a reasonable stance).

The reason the Catholic faith is the "right" one is because it alone was divinely instituted and consists of things - not which we made up - but which God has revealed to us.

Edit - some religions are a lot of shite, but we cannot infer that all are, purely  on that basis.

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

3 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

I didn't say it was all rubbish. I already acknowledged the spiritual aspect to existence. 

What do you consider the difference between spirituality and religion?

[NEM]

Just now, Clydeside_Sheep said:

I have no idea how many false Gods people have created, a good few I should imagine.

A logical analysis of the word "God" indicates that there can only be one of them.

This touches on something that RS said the other day, his discomfort about people thinking they had got it all right, whereas others were all wrong (a reasonable stance).

The reason the Catholic faith is the "right" one is because it alone was divinely instituted and consists of things - not which we made up - but which God has revealed to us.

 

Ha ha come on now what has God revealed?

If he does exist a walk round a children's cancer word would reveal he's a cunt

[frankie_mac's_4]

1 hour ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Patent nonsense.

The Egyptians had Gods, for example, considerably prior to the agricultural revolution and Christianity had been present in the UK for centuries prior to that period.

You're either a complete fucking nutjob or intentionally havering shite. 

[Joe pike]

1 hour ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

I have no idea how many false Gods people have created, a good few I should imagine.

A logical analysis of the word "God" indicates that there can only be one of them.

This touches on something that RS said the other day, his discomfort about people thinking they had got it all right, whereas others were all wrong (a reasonable stance).

The reason the Catholic faith is the "right" one is because it alone was divinely instituted and consists of things - not which we made up - but which God has revealed to us.

Edit - some religions are a lot of shite, but we cannot infer that all are, purely  on that basis.

 

Did he reveal anything about abusing kids at the same time?

[maryhilldon]

2 hours ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

 

The reason the Catholic faith is the "right" one is because it alone was divinely instituted and consists of things - not which we made up - but which God has revealed to us.

 

 

? Ever considered you might be mentally ill? 

[Jocky Balboa]

While some are straying further from the topic and disappearing down a sky pixie-themed rabbit hole, the noose is tightening around the stinking corruption of the Murrell Mafia's inner circle. Surely the FM can't survive now?

[maryhilldon]

3 minutes ago, Jocky Balboa said:

While some are straying further from the topic and disappearing down a sky pixie-themed rabbit hole, the noose is tightening around the stinking corruption of the Murrell Mafia's inner circle. Surely the FM can't survive now?

What's happened?  Nothing in the MSM about it all. 

[shut up meg]

5 hours ago, Jocky Balboa said:

While some are straying further from the topic and disappearing down a sky pixie-themed rabbit hole, the noose is tightening around the stinking corruption of the Murrell Mafia's inner circle. Surely the FM can't survive now?

 

5 hours ago, maryhilldon said:

What's happened?  Nothing in the MSM about it all. 

Fucked over Celtics 10IAR.