Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[caledonia]

6 minutes ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

In 2014 it was a fact
Subsequent events have altered that but I wouldn't decribe it as scaremongering to state facts at the time.
If brexit has surely taught us one thing it is that when people say its scaremongering or project fear etc it tends to end up being reality.

Thought the UK General Election was not until 2015 where it was decided to have vote on brexit if Tories won - so hardly a fact in 2014

[caledonia]

2 minutes ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

are you asking me?

firstly, lets start with me rejecting the premise of your question.
secondly, as regards my current thinking on independence, it is a complex issue around philosophy, identity, practicality, finance, and many other issues, that I could get put forth that would be a lengthy answer, but nothing about any posts you've made tells me you'd be interested in reading it.
 

I'm sure a pithy retort or meme from the peanut gallery will appear shortly.

Thanks for asking

 

[Parklife]

24 minutes ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

In 2014 it was a fact
Subsequent events have altered that but I wouldn't decribe it as scaremongering to state facts at the time.
If brexit has surely taught us one thing it is that when people say its scaremongering or project fear etc it tends to end up being reality.

What was a fact? 

[Jocky Balboa]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:59 AM, Redforever86 said:

Do you think she will? Think they are worried after the shambles in Catalonia? 

This here is one of the reasons why the SNP's "independence in Europe" mantra (going back to their policy reversal in 1987) is now badly outdated and equally badly flawed. The EU was no beacon of democracy when Franco-ist cops were bashing old ladies' heads for exercising a democratic vote for independence. The SNP also tell us, with a straight face, that they are anti-austerity, yet turn a complete blind eye to the EU's imposition of brutal measures in several of its Mediterranean member states.

Equally pointed, is the EU's lack of clarity in 2014 in the issue of Scottish accession... which still continues, despite the fact the UK is out of it all and they EU has thus no obligation to remain diplomatically silent. There is no good reason for them not to release a statement either way on accession for a future independent Scotland.

 

With all of the above in mind, it's clear the SNP heirarchy love the EU more than it could ever love us. I don't regret my YES/Leave votes and believe that the EEA/EFTA arrangement is our best option. The Franco-German bureaucracy can fuck off and do one.

[Redforever86]

3 hours ago, Jocky Balboa said:

The SNP also tell us, with a straight face, that they are anti-austerity, yet turn a complete blind eye to the EU's imposition of brutal measures in several of its Mediterranean member states.

That’s not really true at all, certainly not post COVID with the joint stimulus fund. 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 2/19/2021 at 6:23 PM, Bad_Mobby said:

So, you don’t want to be pushed around by the Germans or French because you prefer to be pushed around by the guffs? (Who are very corrupt ATM) who you like better than weegies/fellow jocks? 

ok

got your answer 

anyone else? 
 

 

  

On 2/19/2021 at 6:23 PM, Bad_Mobby said:

 

We aren't pushed around by the guffs.

Devolved Scotland runs its own affairs (badly) without so much as a tut or sigh from England, which does not interfere in any way.

Compare to Ireland's - a favourite comparison of the SNP - EU experience: 

- If they have the audacity to vote for the wrong thing EU-wise, they need to re-run the referendum until they "get it right" (twice, to date: the Nice and Lisbon treaties).  Imagine Scotland voted for Indy and was told "vote again".  The UK does not control the outcome of Scottish referendums, the way the EU controls those relevant to it in Ireland. The EU even pushed to make us vote again, but democracy actually counts for something in the UK.

https://www.eolasmagazine.ie/irelands-eu-referendums/

- The UK does not dictate or influence how Scotland spends its budget.  In contrast Ireland's spending is monitored and strictly controlled by EU agencies, a fall out of the global financial crisis and a situation likely to persist for decades.  They can actually overrule the Irish Government and force it alter spending plans, if it thinks it necessary.  Imagine Boris Johnston telling Holyrood it couldn't spent its money on xyz. 

https://www.pai.ie/irish-budget-hean-commission/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/noonan-confident-of-getting-budget-approval-from-brussels-1.2423338

- Thanks to the UK, Scotland spends £15.1 billion more annually than it gathers in tax.  In the EU, Ireland is an annual net contributor to the tune of E2.3 billion (E16 billion over the current 7 yr budget cycle, which has just begun).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53917226

https://gript.ie/ireland-eu-budget-contribution-going-up/

- rUK does not treat us like patsys, the way the EU does Ireland.  Recently the EU tried to impose a hard border between Rep Ireland and Northern Ireland.  It did this after about 4 years of saying a hard border was unthinkable and a disaster for Ireland, simply because it suddenly suited it to do so.  They did not consult the Irish Government on this, or even inform them beforehand.  They heard on the news, like everyone else.  Although the EU later stepped back, they were happy to fuck Ireland without even the courtesy of telling them first.  So much for all the talk of EU solidarity etc during the Brexit talks, when the Irish thought they were something, and were laying down the law etc.  They were treated like c*nts, because that really is how the EU views them.  At best they are useful idiots, as per during the Brexit talks - and as per Nicola Sturgeon and her constant pandering to them.

https://inews.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/irish-leader-micheal-martin-eu-vaccine-border-control-851947

No system is perfect, not even the UK (which has irregularities like the west lothian question), but the UK has been a stable and wealthy success for Scotland.  Much better than the irish arrangement of paying billions to be treated like c*nts.

 

[daytripping]

On 2/19/2021 at 6:23 PM, Bad_Mobby said:

So, you don’t want to be pushed around by the Germans or French because you prefer to be pushed around by the guffs? (Who are very corrupt ATM) who you like better than weegies/fellow jocks? 

ok

got your answer 

anyone else? 
 

 

We're GREAT Britain, won 2 World wars by sticking together, much stronger as one. It was our good neighbours the English who developed the first vaccine, we're getting it way faster than the rest of Europe, that's one reason, one of thousands. We run a huge deficit in Scotland, without our neighbours bailing us out we'd be fucked. Why anyone would want to leave the Greatest nation in the World is the baffling, leave to be run by a bunch of braveheart amateurs in the central belt, fuck that.

[Beachend Bootboy]

Not any more since sleepy Joe took over.

[daytripping]

1 minute ago, Bad_Mobby said:

Lol 

Everyone knows the greatest nation in the world is America

They're our best buds, we don't need the European wanks. Second greatest nation.

[Beachend Bootboy]

4 minutes ago, Beachend Bootboy said:

Not any more since sleepy Joe took over.

How in the name o fuck do my posts keep going out o' sync? Fuckin' place!!!!

[Clydeside_Sheep]

1 hour ago, Redforever86 said:

That’s not really true at all, certainly not post COVID with the joint stimulus fund. 

Are you joking?  EU members which owe money to the EU and or IMF following the Global financial crisis have their budgets controlled by these organisations until the majority of the emergency loans are paid back, this will take decades.

Here is the Irish situation (2015 article):

Ireland is subject to two post-programme surveillance missions by the Troika each year until 75 per cent of its bailout loans are repaid, a process that is likely to take decades.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/noonan-confident-of-getting-budget-approval-from-brussels-1.2423338

NB the 'troika' is the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund acting together.

The Greek reforms the EU demanded as a condition of bailing them out during the financial crisis caused a 10 year recession in Greece (till 2017).  Greece will still be paying the EU back post 2060.  Greece's economic output is now comparable to that of the US state of Connecticut.

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-greece-debt-crisis-3305525

In the EU, everyone else must go to hell and die horribly, before France and Germany would consider feeling any pain themselves.

 

[Redforever86]

13 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Are you joking?  EU members which owe money to the EU and or IMF following the Global financial crisis have their budgets controlled by these organisations until the majority of the emergency loans are paid back, this will take decades.

Here is the Irish situation (2015 article):

Ireland is subject to two post-programme surveillance missions by the Troika each year until 75 per cent of its bailout loans are repaid, a process that is likely to take decades.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/noonan-confident-of-getting-budget-approval-from-brussels-1.2423338

NB the 'troika' is the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund acting together.

The Greek reforms the EU demanded as a condition of bailing them out during the financial crisis caused a 10 year recession in Greece (till 2017).  Greece will still be paying the EU back post 2060.  Greece's economic output is now comparable to that of the US state of Connecticut.

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-greece-debt-crisis-3305525

In the EU, everyone else must go to hell and die horribly, before France and Germany would consider feeling any pain themselves.

 

I say post COVID then you quote an article fae 2015. Your tax figures are complete shite too but I’ve better things to do than argue with a fud who believes in Jesus and wanks over thatcher.

[Jocky Balboa]

2 hours ago, Redforever86 said:

That’s not really true at all, certainly not post COVID with the joint stimulus fund. 

I respectfully disagree, the EU has become more and more authoritarian, not least in overseeing economic discipline of members. Putting aside the folly of giving bailouts to failed projects (and even failed states), one key Unionist argument often made is that of budget deficits being a stumbling block to an independent Scotland's future relationship with the bloc. While I agree with independence supporters that our economic potential is understated by the UK, this does not mask the truth about the EU's fiscal policies, which are always set up to ensure the Franco-German-Benelux status quo prevails.

I'll also say, from first hand experience, that the SNP/YES-Remain contingent's constant refrain of "oh look, the EU has Ireland's back. Wow, what an ally!" is horseshit, for it lacks all understanding of the realpolitik of the Brexit situation. The EU simply had to play hardball, not only to appear strong and united, but to send a message to other countries who may get funny ideas of, you know, sovereignty and self-determination. Ireland is expendable to them, as the 2008-09 situation proved.

The Republic of Ireland has indeed prospered far better than it did under London rule, but if it hadn't signed away so much sovereignty to the ever-expansionist EU and went for an EEA/EFTA arrangement, it would be in an even stronger position. Scotland should take heed from this, yet some independence supporters still advocate joining the Euro... 

[Redforever86]

22 minutes ago, Jocky Balboa said:

I respectfully disagree, the EU has become more and more authoritarian, not least in overseeing economic discipline of members. Putting aside the folly of giving bailouts to failed projects (and even failed states), 

You said: "The SNP also tell us, with a straight face, that they are anti-austerity, yet turn a complete blind eye to the EU's imposition of brutal measures in several of its Mediterranean member states."

I said: That’s not really true at all, certainly not post COVID with the joint stimulus fund. 

 

 

What authoritarian measures are these exactly?

Don't think anyone in the UK can talk about failed projects, what are the failed states exactly?

My main point is that due to the joint bond issue many southern states in Europe will be able to benefit from far lower interests rates than they could ever imagine if borrowing on their own. 

 

I'm not even arguing if we should rejoin the EU straight away after indy, I'd give things a few years to settle first, see what trade deals were offered from others etc. 

[Arabian Knight]

stertin tae hink this balboa cunts goat a mogg tattoo oan wan airm n a bj tattoo oan ez ither ffs..inither slave tae eh system n a govermnts wet dream

[Joe pike]

4 hours ago, Bad_Mobby said:

 

Shagz kidz in a pizza shop 

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, Bad_Mobby said:

But, would you suck Bojos penis? 

 

36 minutes ago, Bad_Mobby said:

Flange for me - you bunch of poofs 

 

43 minutes ago, Bad_Mobby said:

But, would you suck Bojos penis? 

Nobby showing his class.

SNP's intellectual hero.

[Jocky Balboa]

2 hours ago, Arabian Knight said:

stertin tae hink this balboa cunts goat a mogg tattoo oan wan airm n a bj tattoo oan ez ither ffs..inither slave tae eh system n a govermnts wet dream

I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion, but you clearly didn't read my posts properly. I clear stated that I am in the YES/Leave camp. 

As a side note, it's interesting to note that two former SNP deputies (Jim Fairlie and Jim Sillars) and the former Health Minister Alex Neil all voted Leave, as did Tommy Sheridan and many other Scots on the left. Polling since June 2016 also shows 35-40% of SNP/YES supporters backed Leave, despite overwhelming Remain bias in the Scottish media and Parliament. That means that, give or take a few percentage points, both Unionists and independence supporters are similarly split on the EU question. I was one of many who said as far back as 2016 that tying independence to EU membership wouldn't be the game changer the SNP leadership would have you believe. The polls were almost static between Summer 2016 and early 2020. Go figure...

[caledonia]

[Redforever86]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56145490
 

Yeah let’s be ruled by these corrupt cunts.

Broke his legal duties and larbour don’t care if he resigns because they’d rather have the incompetent cunt there than fairness for tax payers. 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

14 hours ago, Redforever86 said:

I say post COVID then you quote an article fae 2015. Your tax figures are complete shite too but I’ve better things to do than argue with a fud who believes in Jesus and wanks over thatcher.

Yes, an article from 2015 reminding us that the EU controls indebted members economies for decades to come "post covid".  You are hard case at times!

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

10 hours ago, Bad_Mobby said:

Very well

but now you are only legally allowed to live In Swansea - not Barcelona

you fucking tube 

Stupid cunt

I never cared for the spicks anyway.

[Redforever86]

19 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

I never cared for the spicks anyway.

Typical daft racist right wing god believing kid touching mong. 

[The beard of mcinnes]

On 2/19/2021 at 5:52 PM, Parklife said:

"Scotland would be welcome in the EU" 

Removes a scaremonger that the No campaign (ironically) used last time. 

 

On 2/20/2021 at 10:44 AM, The beard of mcinnes said:

In 2014 it was a fact
Subsequent events have altered that but I wouldn't decribe it as scaremongering to state facts at the time.
If brexit has surely taught us one thing it is that when people say its scaremongering or project fear etc it tends to end up being reality.

 

On 2/20/2021 at 11:09 AM, Parklife said:

What was a fact? 

You are saying that it was scaremongering in 14 to say that leaving the UK was leaving the EU.
I'm saying it was a fact in 14, and that subsequent events do not alter the truth of what was true in 14.

 

Are you saying that is not the case?

[The beard of mcinnes]

13 hours ago, Bad_Mobby said:

But, would you suck Bojos penis? 

such a child, honestly stick to reading the sun and the mirror,

[Parklife]

15 minutes ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

 

 

You are saying that it was scaremongering in 14 to say that leaving the UK was leaving the EU.
I'm saying it was a fact in 14, and that subsequent events do not alter the truth of what was true in 14.

 

Are you saying that is not the case?

I'm saying it's not a "fact" that Scotland wouldn't have been admitted to the EU. It was not a "fact" that Scotland voting for independence would've meant leaving the EU. 

[Redforever86]

Can't be arsed arguing about all this shite. Let's just have another vote and if we bottle it again then fair enough that's it over for the considerable future until there is another vast material change like leaving the EU. 

[caledonia]

1 hour ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

such a child, honestly stick to reading the sun and the mirror,

Do you let your neighbours run your house.

[caledonia]

https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/General documents/Alex_Salmond_Ministerial_Code.pdf

 

https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/General documents/Alex_Salmond_Final_Submission.pdf

 

If link disna work copy and paste into google i canna be arsed

 

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Sturgeon obviously panicking, given her "calling out" Salmond in the press yesterday, after a long time of saying she would reserve her input for the inquiry.

And what a brass neck declaring there is "no evidence" for what Salmond says, despite her regime making nearly 60 separate interventions to delay or block the inquiry from accessing evidence.

[Beachend Bootboy]

57 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

Sturgeon obviously panicking, given her "calling out" Salmond in the press yesterday, after a long time of saying she would reserve her input for the inquiry.

And what a brass neck declaring there is "no evidence" for what Salmond says, despite her regime making nearly 60 separate interventions to delay or block the inquiry from accessing evidence.

She's a cunt.