Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[caledonia]

This will be my last post on this thread.

 

Leaving the EU is grounds for a referendum as it is a huge constitutional change that Scotland by a significant majority voted against. That cannot be denied.

 

However the timing of this isn't appropriate. It should have been announced after Article 50 is enabled.

 

There will now be two years of utter shite spouted from both sides.

 

Whatever camp you're in (and please God don't let it be another Yes/No or Yes /BetterTogether naff as fuck sloganfest) do your research, don't swallow what the MSM tell you and try and think for yourself.

 

I personally think it's the right call at the wrong time. I'd vote Yes tomorrow but will wait and see what shitstorm erupts from Article 50 before making my mind up. I suggest you all do likewise.

 

Final thought. Caledonia, Clydeside to name but two, you won't sway people on here with your propeganda bullshit so rather than turn this thread into 3000 pages of utter plum keep your moronic thoughts to yourself. We'll make our own minds up without your bullshit.

 

Over and out.

 

You have absolutely no fucking chance

But you can ignore the user or simply do not open the thread

[vanderark14]

Thats a good post from you VDA (have you struck your head or something?).

 

I thought Boofs was good except the bit where he essentially asked people not to discuss a 2nd referendum.

 

As you say, its isn't obligatory to read anything.

I agree, great post by him except the part where he's trying to stop people talking about it. I'd go hide in a cave if I were boof because I reckon it'll be even worse this time round.

 

Don't worry CS I still think you're a fucking gump

[360]

I'm all for indyRef2, if anything just to wind up the Billy Britain wanks like Jonty, 360 and ClydsdaleSheep.

 

Try not to get in too much of a tizzy when your "country" votes against its own independence...

 

AGAIN!!!

 

[The Oxford Don]

Mods can you please ban CS from posting non this topic for all our sanity.

Caley, congratulations this is a big day for you.

That's like the inverse of boof's post. Daft, intolerant nonsense.

 

Folk are free to post away to their hearts' content. CS provides an intelligent and interesting pro-Union view which, though I disagree with it, I always enjoy reading.

 

Helluva boring world if we are all forced to agree with each other.

[zander]

Yes last time around.

On the fence this time.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

So:

 

1. How does it make sense to leave the UK, a union where we share kinship, language and history, in favour of an even bigger union where we share none of these things?

 

2. What currency are we going to use in an independent Scotland? This is important as it affects our salaries / mortgages etc.

 

3. What public services will be cut to offset Scotland's £15 billion budget deficit? Would the EU even accept us with such a deficit, the size of which (I think) breaches their financial rules for member nations?

 

4. Why doesn't the pro-indy movement want Scotland to have control over (eg) Scotland waters, with the associated employment and revenues? Why do they want the EU to control, and benefit from, this instead?

 

5. How will we offset the significant loss of employment resulting from (eg) loss of Royal Navy contracts from the Clyde and Rosyth, loss of the Faslane naval base and various other British military installations in Scotland?

 

6. Is it really wise to cut political links with the largest markets for our exports?

 

7. Why haven't the SNP sought to clarify any of these questions, before calling a 2nd referendum?

 

I understand independence is the point of the SNP, but It would have made more sense for them to go for independence on the back of a record of good governance (which would have swayed people to their cause). But their record of being in power in poor, because everything else comes a poor 2nd to independence - the cart before the horse.

 

Scotland's education system ranking has slipped to its worst ever rating on their watch. Their law making is abysmal, producing only ineffectual laws which do more harm than good (offensive behaviour at football) or end up embroiled in the courts (alcohol pricing, named person). They trumpet about the will of the people when it suits them (brexit) and yet ignore it when it suits them (gay marriage).

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I agree, great post by him except the part where he's trying to stop people talking about it. I'd go hide in a cave if I were boof because I reckon it'll be even worse this time round.

Yes I think it could get heated, (not on here, in society generally) given we have been over the course before and I think many people dont want a 2nd referendum,

 

My main hope is for more TV scenes of nationalists and huns knocking lumps out of each other in george square. Talk about entertainment

 

Don't worry CS I still think you're a fucking gump

That's very reassuring, there would be something wrong otherwise!

[Clydeside_Sheep]

That's like the inverse of boof's post. Daft, intolerant nonsense.

 

Folk are free to post away to their hearts' content. CS provides an intelligent and interesting pro-Union view which, though I disagree with it, I always enjoy reading.

 

Helluva boring world if we are all forced to agree with each other.

Thanks man - your own measured and welcome contributions show that the nationalist side aren't all lunatics!

[Guest milne_afc]

Well said, Boofon.

 

Now, is there a way of muting this thread? Or can it be moved to some obscure part of the forum. This kind of chat wouldn't be tolerated irl(in real life) pubs a second time.

[robbojunior]

So:

 

1. How does it make sense to leave the UK, a union where we share kinship, language and history, in favour of an even bigger union where we share none of these things?

 

We can still share kinship language and history with them whilst being an independent nation. We don't necessarily have to join the EU if we become independent. The snp are saying they want to retain access to the free market like Norway for example.

 

2. What currency are we going to use in an independent Scotland? This is important as it affects our salaries / mortgages etc.

 

I agree this is important and particularly so for the snp given the last one. I would suggest a new Scottish currency but let's see what is proposed. The referendum is not tomorrow remember.

 

3. What public services will be cut to offset Scotland's £15 billion budget deficit? Would the EU even accept us with such a deficit, the size of which (I think) breaches their financial rules for member nations?

 

Again we may not as a nation wish to be part of the EU. The £15m deficit is scotlands 'share' of the uk deficit. How this is dealt with will be part of a negotiation. Again an important question but it's the independence movement's challenge to try and answer it. Not paying for HS2 will provide a good chunk.

 

4. Why doesn't the pro-indy movement want Scotland to have control over (eg) Scotland waters, with the associated employment and revenues? Why do they want the EU to control, and benefit from, this instead?

 

As above regarding eu membership

 

5. How will we offset the significant loss of employment resulting from (eg) loss of Royal Navy contracts from the Clyde and Rosyth, loss of the Faslane naval base and various other British military installations in Scotland?

 

Speculation that navy contracts will be lost.

 

6. Is it really wise to cut political links with the largest markets for our exports?

 

Why do we have to cut political links with them? We can just negotiate with them as an independent nation. Trade between rUK and Scotland will not cease if we become independent.

 

7. Why haven't the SNP sought to clarify any of these questions, before calling a 2nd referendum?

 

They haven't called the referendum yet. Also they can't possibly know the answers to any of those questions because they can't predict the future. Much as the uk gov doesn't have a fucking clue what post brexit uk will be like.

 

I understand independence is the point of the SNP, but It would have made more sense for them to go for independence on the back of a record of good governance (which would have swayed people to their cause). But their record of being in power in poor, because everything else comes a poor 2nd to independence - the cart before the horse.

 

Personally I think it's the wrong time, agree with boofon but will still support because fundamentally for me it's about being in control of your own destiny. We already are a country, so let's run it ourselves. No one can predict the future in or out of the Uk it's all best guess.

 

Scotland's education system ranking has slipped to its worst ever rating on their watch. Their law making is abysmal, producing only ineffectual laws which do more harm than good (offensive behaviour at football) or end up embroiled in the courts (alcohol pricing, named person). They trumpet about the will of the people when it suits them (brexit) and yet ignore it when it suits them (gay marriage).

 

Fortunately in an independent Scotland they will be out on their ear if they perform badly. In the UK, Scotland can vote for 200 years for whoever they like but it won't oust a government regardless of how badly they treat the country

 

[360]

Folk are free to post away to their hearts' content.

 

While I agree with the sentiment, the mods have recently ensured that this is no longer the case on this football forum.

 

It's imperative that their fake news is called out, this is no place that can boast about freedom of speech.

[The Buzzard]

How many pages will this thread run to then? I wasn't on here for the first Referendum.

[granite sheep]

Had been coming since the Brexit result. Even more since Cameron resigned, and May took over; her government then promptly pushed the FULL THATCHERITE RETARD button and started fucking over not just the Scottish government, but all the other devolved governments as well.

[Big Man]

Voted yes the first time round will be voting yes again, regardless how incompetently the SNP put their case.

 

This is a matter of principle.

 

Any fuckwit who voted no last time around based on the promises of a new scotland bill and more devolved powers and who doesn't vote yes, after having several months to digest that watered down peace of shit and after the sewell convention scandal of the supreme court case, should be taken outside and shot.

 

Voting yes is a no brainer given what we saw happen the last time around.

 

We will never get this opportunity ever again. It's now or never!

[Big Man]

Had been coming since the Brexit result. Even more since Cameron resigned, and May took over; her government then promptly pushed the FULL THATCHERITE RETARD button and started fucking over not just the Scottish government, but all the other devolved governments as well.

 

Correct.

 

May has played this awfully.

[Panda]

Worth of Scottish exports to rest of UK: £48.5 billion

Worth of Scottish exports to EU: £11.6 billion

 

Number of Scottish jobs linked to UK market: 1,000,000

Number of Scottish jobs linked to EU marker: 250,000

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/gordon-brown-tells-scots-uks-single-market-worth-far-more-than-e/

 

Why do the SNP seek to harm our economy by cutting off access to our main market, while pretending that the EU single market is the be all and end all?

But Scotland wouldn't be leaving the U.K. market, unless rUK set up trading barriers which would seem unlikely.

 

An independent Scotland would be in the EU and still trading with rUK.

 

If anything, it would benefit from the fact that the EU is likely to come out better from the Brexit negotiations than the UK.

[mcdougall(4)]

But Scotland wouldn't be leaving the U.K. market, unless rUK set up trading barriers which would seem unlikely.

 

An independent Scotland would be in the EU and still trading with rUK.

 

If anything, it would benefit from the fact that the EU is likely to come out better from the Brexit negotiations than the UK.

 

 

I'm sorry but that's utter nonsense.

 

All of it.

[robbojunior]

 

 

I'm sorry but that's utter nonsense.

 

All of it.

You think Scotland will stop trading with rUK?

 

Wise up

[nh7740]

As for Stugeon have to change channels when she comes on tv as cant stand her,take the hint nobody wants to break the union.

[Donmacca]

Voted yes last time and think I'll vote yes again. There's a chance here with the rUK leaving the EU and an independent Scotland looking to join to try attract more business north of the border. Scotland in the EU may be an attractive place for for companies threatening to quit the UK post Brexit.

 

I am amazed though by the handful of English lads I'm offshore with this morning. "Why don't you Jocks just fuck off then" "If you leave the UK you can't come back, fuck you" "I've got Scottish mates what about them" "well you can take 10% of the UK's debt with you". I'm pretty sure your Scottish mates will still be your mates for a start but the bitterness of these guys amaze me. It's like teenagers getting dumped and then going around telling their mates it was them who dumped the other one.

[rumpus]

As for Stugeon have to change channels when she comes on tv as cant stand her,take the hint nobody wants to break the union.

 

 

I do.

[Reed or deed]

Can they not just have the vote and get it over and done with?

Another god knows how long of freaks forcing this shite down peoples' throats.

 

Politicians in their element though, self promotionalist cunts.

 

I'm voting yes but it will be based on heart and not a completely meaningless bunch of speculation or corrupted projections.

 

People with agendas , GTF.

[Reed or deed]

As for Stugeon have to change channels when she comes on tv as cant stand her,take the hint nobody wants to break the union.

 

Incorrect.

 

45% of the total of the last referendum voters do.

[vanderark14]

Voted yes last time and think I'll vote yes again. There's a chance here with the rUK leaving the EU and an independent Scotland looking to join to try attract more business north of the border. Scotland in the EU may be an attractive place for for companies threatening to quit the UK post Brexit.

 

I am amazed though by the handful of English lads I'm offshore with this morning. "Why don't you Jocks just fuck off then" "If you leave the UK you can't come back, fuck you" "I've got Scottish mates what about them" "well you can take 10% of the UK's debt with you". I'm pretty sure your Scottish mates will still be your mates for a start but the bitterness of these guys amaze me. It's like teenagers getting dumped and then going around telling their mates it was them who dumped the other one.

 

I've already seen a difference in attitude with some people down here and its only been 24 hours since they announced there MIGHT be another referendum.

[Bluto10]

I've already seen a difference in attitude with some people down here and its only been 24 hours since they announced there MIGHT be another referendum.

 

It's a very divisive topic though vda.

Agenda driven by career politicians and many people fall for it.

 

Quite clearly the UK govt are failing a large percentage of the U.K. populace but a real politician should fight to change that, not split up what should be a very successful Union

 

the end result is everybody losing.

[vanderark14]

It's a very divisive topic though vda.

Agenda driven by career politicians and many people fall for it.

 

Quite clearly the UK govt are failing a large percentage of the U.K. populace but a real politician should fight to change that, not split up what should be a very successful Union

 

the end result is everybody losing.

 

you've got no chance of the tories ever treating this union as equal. The first ministers of each devolved parliament have no idea whether the Prime Minister will trigger article 50 or not, there's nothing equal in it at all. Theresa May made t quite clear that the Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish would have no part in negotiations. If anything Theresa May played right into the SNP's hands.

 

Whether its divisive or not is irrelevant, some but thankfully not most people have already changed their attitude towards me down here. I fully expected it though and I'll put up with it beause I made the choice to move here.

[vanderark14]

What yesterday proved is that Sturgeon and her cronies only care about their own agenda and fame. This should not have been announced until at least we know what Brexit looks like.

 

and you had the cheek to slag off CS for having stupid opinions.

 

Give yourself a shake and don't be so fucking daft

[beer gut]

Should there not be a "Dont Know" option in the poll?

 

I voted Yes last time around but also voted leave so my head is mince.

 

Agree with Bofoon. She has shot her load to early on this one. She should have waited until the dust had settled and we know what deal the UK will get.

[Donmacca]

It's a very divisive topic though vda.

Agenda driven by career politicians and many people fall for it.

 

Quite clearly the UK govt are failing a large percentage of the U.K. populace but a real politician should fight to change that, not split up what should be a very successful Union

 

the end result is everybody losing.

 

Yeah it's a divisive issue but the problem is people have forgotten how to debate these issues. Instead it's a lot easier to sling insults and revert to name calling. Personally I think social media has a lot to do with this, especially the likes of twitter where you're limited to 140 characters and people feel what they say has to make an impact. Life is a lot easier when people sit down and talk about these things and explain why you have a certain view on politics, not just assume every person with right wing views are a bigot and left wing folk are libtard hippy do-gooders.

[vanderark14]

I see the scottish labour leader has been caught lying already, she claimed to already be the subject of abuse due to the start of the 2nd referendum

 

the 2nd referendum hasn't started and it might not happen, nobody could find the abuse she supposedly got but plenty of people were found to be disagreeing with her.