Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[vanderark14]

 

Yeah it's a divisive issue but the problem is people have forgotten how to debate these issues. Instead it's a lot easier to sling insults and revert to name calling. Personally I thing social media has a lot to do with this, especially the likes of twitter where you're limited to 140 characters and people feel what they say has to make an impact. Life is a lot easier when people sit down and talk about these things and explain why you have a certain view on politics, not just assume every person with right wing views are a bigot and left wing folk are libtard hippy do-gooders.

 

fuck you min

[RAZOR]

Still aye.

 

Already sick of all the chat about it though

[craegDAMH]

Should there not be a "Dont Know" option in the poll?

 

Agreed!

 

 

I voted Yes last time around but also voted leave so my head is mince.

 

Depending on what happens in France and Holland, there may not be an EU to join....

 

 

Agree with Bofoon. She has shot her load to early on this one. She should have waited until the dust had settled and we know what deal the UK will get.

 

I don't get this. She said in her speech that the vote would take place when we know what Brexit looks like. It's not going to be any time soon that's for sure.

[craegDAMH]

What yesterday proved is that Sturgeon and her cronies only care about their own agenda and fame. This should not have been announced until at least we know what Brexit looks like.

 

We'll know what Brexit looks like when we vote though. That's the whole idea.

[Crossbow]

 

That was going to be my next point. Politicians to some extent do what they believe is right and to some extent what they believe will get them voted in (ie what is popular). So either the SNP believe what they are doing is right, or they believe it will be popular. Either way, this means it is actually the correct thing to do. If it's popular then it means a significant number of people in Scotland want it. So a referendum seems like a good way to find out just how many.

 

Let's be honest, everyone knows the nation is split almost down the middle on this issue - it is very close, so to dismiss it off the table is to silence half the country. If the vote was 70% no, 30 % yes, then this would be dead and the SNP would most likely not be in power, but it wasn't, and they are, in fact going from 6 to 56 MPs at Westminster post-indyref.

 

Anyone trying to silence this issue is the one with the fingers in their ears.

Using that argument - should there therefore be a further referendum before independence is actually an event to check that that is still the will of the people once the negotiations have been completed - and then another one just to be sure - oh and we'll do it again in the morning in case you've changed your mind overnight - it's a politicos power grab - to be sure it's the raison d'etre for the SNP but it's like a wee boy who hasn't got his way asking again and again to try and get his parents to change their mind. We voted remain and the first past the post system got the SNP 56 MPs - that certainly is not representative of Scots views.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

if Scotland was going to become independent, the time was in the 1960s when the North Sea really took off.

 

Trying to do it now, when:

 

- the North sea is coming to the end of its life (and there are decommissioning bills lurking)

- the EU is imploding

- we are already embroiled in brexit

 

Is not wise.

 

There is a peculiar Scottish fetish for trying to tackle issues too late and when there are multiple balls in play, all of which are not under our control..

 

Being asked to vote for a vaguely-defined independence, amid the context of a not-yet-settled Brexit, is like trying to beat Germany in the last game of the world cup group stage, while hoping costa rica get a point off Brazil in their game which is being played at the same time.

[Henry]

Perhaps we should restrict access to this thread to folk that actually have a vote

[vanderark14]

You want to remove your tinted goggles and see things for what they are.

 

Don't be naive

 

ok show me how I am being naive? You said its all about fame and agenda, a comment made with no fact to back it up. In other words a nothing statement.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

She has shot her load to early on this one. She should have waited until the dust had settled and we know what deal the UK will get.

 

Now May & Co can ensure the Brexit deal is very attractive for Scotland, and then send us out to vote where a vote for for indy (and likely EU membership, even if after a delay) means Holyrood giving up very significant powers to EU control.

 

I think that this scenario would have played out anyway, but it has been cemented now.

[vanderark14]

Great point, that cunt VDA is a particular prick when debating the politics of a country he chose to leave

 

and your a prick everyday, you don't even have the will power to ignore a guy pretending to be a fucking seagull

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

Yeah it's a divisive issue but the problem is people have forgotten how to debate these issues. Instead it's a lot easier to sling insults and revert to name calling. Personally I think social media has a lot to do with this, especially the likes of twitter where you're limited to 140 characters and people feel what they say has to make an impact. Life is a lot easier when people sit down and talk about these things and explain why you have a certain view on politics, not just assume every person with right wing views are a bigot and left wing folk are libtard hippy do-gooders.

 

Excellent post.

 

In Scotland in particular, there is a resentment of anyone who goes against the grain.

 

This is compounded by the snowflake generation who are used to being spoon-fed baseless opinions by the MSM / celebrities are who are fundamentally unequipped to deal with the trauma of hearing different views.

 

Remember all the young people (especially women) filmed in tears and/or taking spaz-attacks when Trump won in America?Snowflake generation.

[craegDAMH]

 

Now May & Co can ensure the Brexit deal is very attractive for Scotland, and then send us out to vote where a vote for for indy (and likely EU membership, even if after a delay) means Holyrood giving up very significant powers to EU control.

 

I think that this scenario would have played out anyway, but it has been cemented now.

 

Good job Nicola then...?

[vanderark14]

 

Excellent post.

 

In Scotland in particular, there is a resentment of anyone who goes against the grain.

 

This is compounded by the snowflake generation who are used to being spoon-fed baseless opinions by the MSM / celebrities are who are fundamentally unequipped to deal with the trauma of hearing different views.

 

Remember all the young people (especially women) filmed in tears and/or taking spaz-attacks when Trump won in America?Snowflake generation.

 

strange stance from you CS, it could be argued that those voting yes went against the grain. I get what you are trying to say though about snowflake generation

 

 

Now May & Co can ensure the Brexit deal is very attractive for Scotland, and then send us out to vote where a vote for for indy (and likely EU membership, even if after a delay) means Holyrood giving up very significant powers to EU control.

 

I think that this scenario would have played out anyway, but it has been cemented now.

 

do you think May & Co will do this?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

Good job Nicola then...?

 

Not if you wanted to maximise the chance of this latest indy pitch succeeding.

[Pash]

 

Now May & Co can ensure the Brexit deal is very attractive for Scotland, and then send us out to vote where a vote for for indy (and likely EU membership, even if after a delay) means Holyrood giving up very significant powers to EU control.

 

I think that this scenario would have played out anyway, but it has been cemented now.

 

And then retract it all after the dust settles.

 

Silly little Scotland (again), get back in your box (again) and do as you're told.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

strange stance from you CS, it could be argued that those voting yes went against the grain. I get what you are trying to say though about snowflake generation

Fair point, I should have been clearer - by "against the grain" I was meaning against the popular public sentiment, which is seen as cool / hip, as espoused by youth and celebrities in particular.

 

There is often a "cool" / acceptable point of view, which dominates the discussion, yet many people hold different views privately and are reticent to air them for fear of being rounded upon.

 

Kinda like the shy tory effect.

 

do you think May & Co will do this?

I sincerely always thought Theresa May would strive to deliver a good deal for Scotland with, for example, us getting control over Scottish waters (which is my own favourite hobby horse in all this, for the positive effect on our economy, employment, tax take etc).

 

As UK prime minister, from a unionist party, she wants to keep the Uk together and so had a vested interest in this.

 

I think she has all the more motivation to do so, given that Sturgeon has now played her sole card in the game.

[caledonia]

But Scotland wouldn't be leaving the U.K. market, unless rUK set up trading barriers which would seem unlikely.

 

An independent Scotland would be in the EU and still trading with rUK.

 

If anything, it would benefit from the fact that the EU is likely to come out better from the Brexit negotiations than the UK.

Correct and anyone saying otherwise is a fuckwit or a liar with an agenda

[Pash]

Why would rUK cut of it's nose to spite it's face?

 

Makes no sense at all.

[Jds192]

Why would rUK cut of it's nose to spite it's face?

 

Makes no sense at all.

 

In what way are people suggesting that would happen?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

But Scotland wouldn't be leaving the U.K. market, unless rUK set up trading barriers which would seem unlikely.

 

It isnt unlikely at all.

 

Every country / bloc in the world ensures some kind of restricted access to its internal markets. That's why countries sign trade agreements or buy access to markets.

 

Non-EU countries have to pay for access to the EU market.

 

It would be the same with rUK and their market.

 

And given the rUK market is worth so much more to Scotland, it would make more sense for us to be part of that market and pay for access - or reach a trade agreement - for the much smaller EU market.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Correct and anyone saying otherwise is a fuckwit or a liar with an agenda

 

It wasn't correct at all.

 

Its downright wrong to say that there are no barriers to trade between countries / blocs, which means trade agreements and/or access payments are required.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

And then retract it all after the dust settles.

 

Silly little Scotland (again), get back in your box (again) and do as you're told.

 

I do not share this inadequacy / sense of victimhood.

 

I think Scotland has traditionally done well out of the UK - just as the UK has done well out of Scotland.

 

I think both entities will continue to mutually prosper in future.

[Dynamo]

The biggest thing that irked me during the last campaign was the patronising rhetoric of 'Silly little Scotland, how on earth do you expect to survive without the union etc etc,'.

[Jds192]

The biggest thing that irked me during the last campaign was the patronising rhetoric of 'Silly little Scotland, how on earth do you expect to survive without the union etc etc,'.

 

Not much different from being told silly little Scotland cant survive without the EU now.

 

They are all at trying to scare folk into going one way or the other but for most part in debates etc the point was that Scotland could survive as independent country but better off as part of UK.

[rumpus]

^ Yip.

 

One daytime TV presenter (posh south east england type, can't remember her name) likening Scotland to an irritating spoilt noisy child in the back seat of a car

[caledonia]

 

In what way are people suggesting that would happen?

So it wont happen glad we have cleared that up then for the doubters

[Jds192]

So it wont happen glad we have cleared that up then for the doubters

 

There will be potential barriers such as borders, different currencies, different taxes, different legislation in services etc.

 

None of which have been created by rUK.

 

In relation to free trade rUK cant create any barriers with Scotland in EU as EU wont allow a country to negotiate their own trade deals anyway.

 

So yes it is unlikely any of the barriers created are by rUK.

[Pubes Macdonald]

 

It isnt unlikely at all.

 

Every country / bloc in the world ensures some kind of restricted access to its internal markets. That's why countries sign trade agreements or buy access to markets.

 

Non-EU countries have to pay for access to the EU market.

 

It would be the same with rUK and their market.

 

And given the rUK market is worth so much more to Scotland, it would make more sense for us to be part of that market and pay for access - or reach a trade agreement - for the much smaller EU market.

 

You are obsessed with money.

 

I will vote Yes because i want Scotland to be free from the shackles of Westminster and stand on its own feet and make its own decisions. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

And before you mention Brussels all other countries in the EU are independent as well.

[Dynamo]

 

Not much different from being told silly little Scotland cant survive without the EU now.

 

They are all at trying to scare folk into going one way or the other but for most part in debates etc the point was that Scotland could survive as independent country but better off as part of UK.

 

 

In the last campaign?

 

Give me a break. Project Fear was in full swing and we were told our economy would collapse.

[360]

So far in her political career, Sturgeon has been demonstrably absolutely schooled by:

 

• Alistair Darling
• George Galloway
• Jim Murphy
• Annabel Goldie
• Danny Alexander
• Boris Johnson
• Andrea Leadsom
• Michael Gove

Will be interesting to see who else is on this list come the next vote.