Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[Don Fonte]

29 minutes ago, manboobs109 said:

Get the 'leave a light on' chat to fuck. Really humiliating. 

Agreed here Moobster.

[For Fecks Sake]

11 minutes ago, caledonia said:

You do know Scotland already abolished paying for sanitary products while in the EU also notice Joe Pike agreed with you so presumably he did not know as well

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51629880

 

I know that they are now 'free' in Scotland  but most women will still opt to buy them in shops and supermarkets as the legal duty is only on local authorities to ensure anyone who needs period products can obtain them for free - how that's actually implemented is up to each local authority.

Those that continue to buy them would still have to pay a tax on them if the UK was still in the EU.

What about the other aspects of my response about giving up our ability to create our own rules as opposed to only having a 'say'?

[CraigHill]

13 minutes ago, Parklife said:

You'll have to ask her. 

You said we "can't" do it. Or do we now agree that what you said previously was nonsense? 

 

Sturgeons actions in whoring Scotland to the EU admit that she doesn’t believe we can go it alone, otherwise that would surely be her plan?

if she is portraying EU membership as part of our “independence” plan then yes, the suggestion coming from our leaders is that we can’t do it by going it alone.

It’s her actions that give that impression.

She might change tact and actually wish to seek true independence for Scotland but at the moment it’s not looking like it’s actually in the SNP’s thoughts - Blackford embarrassed himself in Parliament on the same topic the other day.

 

[Parklife]

33 minutes ago, CraigHill said:

Sturgeons actions in whoring Scotland to the EU admit that she doesn’t believe we can go it alone, otherwise that would surely be her plan?

if she is portraying EU membership as part of our “independence” plan then yes, the suggestion coming from our leaders is that we can’t do it by going it alone.

It’s her actions that give that impression.

She might change tact and actually wish to seek true independence for Scotland but at the moment it’s not looking like it’s actually in the SNP’s thoughts - Blackford embarrassed himself in Parliament on the same topic the other day.

 

You're confusing "can't" with what she thinks is best. 

For example, I think the UK is better off in the EU. I don't think the UK "can't" survive outwith it. Pretty massive difference, I'm sure you'll agree. 

[NEM]

39 minutes ago, CraigHill said:

 Blackford embarrassed himself in Parliament on the same topic the other day.

 

That fat mess just needs to turn up and he embarrasses himself 

[redone]

5 minutes ago, Parklife said:

You're confusing "can't" with what she thinks is best. 

For example, I think the UK is better off in the EU. I don't think the UK "can't" survive outwith it. Pretty massive difference, I'm sure you'll agree. 

Exactly.  It’s quite clear that Sturgeon believes that the benefits of an independent Scotland being part of the EU outweigh the negatives.

Similarly there are many Scots who voted No in the referendum who believe that the benefits of remaining as part of the UK outweigh the negatives of independence.  Seems to me that it’s only fairly dim folk who equate voting No with the voters thinking that Scotland is incapable of governing itself.  I certainly don’t recall any serious politician or political commentator stating anything like that.

[CraigHill]

9 minutes ago, Parklife said:

You're confusing "can't" with what she thinks is best. 

For example, I think the UK is better off in the EU. I don't think the UK "can't" survive outwith it. Pretty massive difference, I'm sure you'll agree. 

You’ve already said that Id need to ask Sturgeon why she is so willing to throw true independence down the pan no sooner has it been given, so you don’t know what she thinks is best, nor whether she thinks joining the EU is best as without a union with Europe Scotland wouldn’t be able to be truly independent.

The fact is if Sturgeon gets her way we’ll not be independent for long enough to ever find out if we can or can’t so this is a pointless discussion.

[Jocky Balboa]

1 minute ago, rocket_scientist said:

I voted for independence and to leave the EU. Don't know if that's a combination which means I live with mummy and daddy or if it means I'm a drizzling faggot but I'm highly sceptical that residential positions and/or sexual proclivities can be determined from voting patterns. Call me old-fashioned that way. 

I'm also YES/Leave and contrary to what the SNP leadership would have you believe, the independence movement is not universally enamoured with the EU. Polls have regularly showed that around 40% of independence supporters backed Leave and I'll bet the vast majority did so for very democratic reasons and not the bampottery of Garage, Gove et al. What does irk me, is that Sturgeon and her cronies demanded independence be taken seriously (rightly so) back in 2011 when it was polling at around 30%, yet leaving the EU doesn't get a fair hearing from them, despite the fact that (a) they were anti-EEC/EU until 1987 and still have a Eurosceptic wing to this day and (b) Leave is starting from a higher point of 38%. 

Who's undemocratic now?

[caledonia]

Im out cant be bothered arguing on here for 6months/1year/2years or whenever till we have a vote especially with pro Uk folk who wont ever change their minds.

would rather try and convince those that might be open to change.

but will leave you with this now that the latest excuse seems to be we have to pay tax on sanitary products that we can get for free.

repeat but so true

 

[DD1903]

28 minutes ago, caledonia said:

Im out cant be bothered arguing on here for 6months/1year/2years or whenever till we have a vote especially with pro Uk folk who wont ever change their minds.

would rather try and convince those that might be open to change.

but will leave you with this now that the latest excuse seems to be we have to pay tax on sanitary products that we can get for free.

repeat but so true

 

The snp are already achieving some of that sadly. Education quality is slipping in the country. Badly. 
 

as someone who voted for Independence, I've noted that some of the reasons that No voters give for saying no is how poor the snp do in the major areas. Trying to explain that a vote for Indy isn't a vote for snp doesn't work (mostly), but if the snp start running things better, then more people would be yes for sure.

[muttonhumper]

3 hours ago, Parklife said:

A guy who believes Scotland are uniquely placed as the only country on earth who're incapable of governing themselves.

You and anyone else who believes that are losers. 

Not only losers, but clearly fucking retarded.

Add to that self loathing, inbred, servile fucking creeps who detest their own country.

I'd gladly boot each and every one of their slabbering hun cunts in.

[Dom Sullivan]

54 minutes ago, caledonia said:

Im out cant be bothered arguing on here for 6months/1year/2years or whenever till we have a vote especially with pro Uk folk who wont ever change their minds.

would rather try and convince those that might be open to change.

but will leave you with this now that the latest excuse seems to be we have to pay tax on sanitary products that we can get for free.

repeat but so true

 

Thing is, we’ve already had the vote. 

Democracy has spoken (on both topics - independent and the EU).

like it or not, we have to accept democracy.

Sturgeon should shut the fuck up about Indyref2

For the record, neither vote went the way I voted.

[Fridge]

24 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

Weak, weak argument.

What is the bigger contributor to education success or failure, the government or the pupils?

Specifically, because it is folly to blame the kids, the government or the parents?

How can we teach people who don't want to be taught?

Some of the mutants on here are parents, allegedly. What fucking hope have their shit kids got in life?

And the mutants can at least use a keyboard. You might not imagine that there are worse than them in society but where they are clearly bottom quartile, the bottom 10% are fucking trash scum. We need global depopulation, indeed the tablets in Arizona prove that this is the agenda. Scotland is drowning in shit human beings and our population growth trend has been negative. Our economic growth will be improved by (true) independence and sterilising the mutant classes. I would prefer extermination personally but I'm not in charge. I will engineer a position as chairman and key decision-maker (last vote and say) of the mutant-assessment sub-committee and the plan will be to get rid of at least 20% of the current Scottish people and/or at least the guarantee that their shit gene pool is terminated. I would be surprised if less than 90% of Bridge of Don, Blackhill, Springburn, Cardenden, Lochgelly, Morningside, Bearsden, Milngavie, Perth, anything north of Inverness and Dunblane residents aren't culled in the first wave.

Fucking hell Rocket, fair play if you do go on a killling rampage, excellent Sky news watching. I’ll easy turn with some cans for you before you get shot to death.

[The beard of mcinnes]

8 hours ago, caledonia said:

we will have more say and unionists cant now argue about trade offs because Scotland as part of the EU would have to get same deal
image posting

I love these types of infographic, just colours thrown together, no source.

Made to appeal to the utterly gormless and gullible.

[The beard of mcinnes]

8 hours ago, Parklife said:

A guy who believes Scotland are uniquely placed as the only country on earth who're incapable of governing themselves. . 

Imagine thinking the people of Scotland cant look after themselves... ?

Who has actually said that tho?

It isn't whether Scotland can, but surely whether it is in the best interests of the Scottish people if they should.
The biggest problem with your statements above is that your starting position is that people who don't think the same as you on the topic are losers and pathetic etc. as opposed to being people who have weighed up the options and decided that they would rather not be part of an independent Scotland.

 

 

[Parklife]

1 hour ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

Who has actually said that tho?

Craig hill. He said Scotland "can't" go it alone. 

1 hour ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

It isn't whether Scotland can, but surely whether it is in the best interests of the Scottish people if they should.

Exactly my point.

1 hour ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

The biggest problem with your statements above is that your starting position is that people who don't think the same as you on the topic are losers and pathetic etc. as opposed to being people who have weighed up the options and decided that they would rather not be part of an independent Scotland.

The biggest problem is that you've not understood what I've said (perhaps my fault for not articulating myself well enough). You're saying exactly what I was saying. 

[Jocky Balboa]

4 hours ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

Who has actually said that tho?

It isn't whether Scotland can, but surely whether it is in the best interests of the Scottish people if they should.
The biggest problem with your statements above is that your starting position is that people who don't think the same as you on the topic are losers and pathetic etc. as opposed to being people who have weighed up the options and decided that they would rather not be part of an independent Scotland.

 

 

Good post, but there is an argument that the unionist side has been permeated by a level of negativity both unrealistic and unsustainable. I say the former because, as several have quite rightly said, there is no logical reason why Scotland couldn't be successful as an independent country, on par with other similar sized nations. I say the latter, because there is no way a Better Together Mk.II campaign can ever get off the ground if they run the same tactics as last time. Whether opponents of independence like it or not, they simply have to make a more positive case FOR the union next time, as opposed to a negative case AGAINST independence.

I will also point out that, a lot of NO supporters I conversed with last time cited the fact it was the YES side advocating change, ergo the burden of proof, as it were, was on the YES campaign. That doesn't hold water now, for people got change since 2014 whether they liked it or not (as many of us predicted back then, to much derision from Labour supporters in particular, Brexit was a distinct possibility). The status quo has been obliterated and the NO side cannot fall back on their position as the default "safe" option.

Put simply, both sides need to renew their case and a fresh campaign put to the people to decide, whether we forge ahead in a UK outside the EU, its Single Market and Customs Union, or choose another path. With regards the latter, if the SNP go into it with returning to the EU as a key selling point, YES may lose again if they take for granted the large YES/Leave demographic.

My preference is still independence outside the EU a la Norway, Iceland and Switzerland, with the choice of EEA/EFTA and EU to be put to referendum after any successful Indyref2. That said, if we must return to the EU, I'd strongly advocate the Sweden / Denmark option, with retention of our own currency.

[Don Fonte]

4 hours ago, The beard of mcinnes said:

I love these types of infographic, just colours thrown together, no source.

Made to appeal to the utterly gormless and gullible.

You enjoy them then aye?

[The beard of mcinnes]

20 hours ago, Don Fonte said:

You enjoy them then aye?

Bet that was funny in your head, then you went to the actual trouble of typing it out.

 

Terrific.

[The beard of mcinnes]

17 hours ago, rocket_scientist said:

You did say "I love..." which is disingenuous at best or more probably, the sort of total wankery unfortunate expression a wet wipe cunt would come up with. 

Sarcasm.

 

Something else you don't understand.

 

Anyone keeping a list?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/2/2021 at 1:03 AM, Jocky Balboa said:

Good post, but there is an argument that the unionist side has been permeated by a level of negativity both unrealistic and unsustainable. I say the former because, as several have quite rightly said, there is no logical reason why Scotland couldn't be successful as an independent country, on par with other similar sized nations. I say the latter, because there is no way a Better Together Mk.II campaign can ever get off the ground if they run the same tactics as last time. Whether opponents of independence like it or not, they simply have to make a more positive case FOR the union next time, as opposed to a negative case AGAINST independence.

I will also point out that, a lot of NO supporters I conversed with last time cited the fact it was the YES side advocating change, ergo the burden of proof, as it were, was on the YES campaign. That doesn't hold water now, for people got change since 2014 whether they liked it or not (as many of us predicted back then, to much derision from Labour supporters in particular, Brexit was a distinct possibility). The status quo has been obliterated and the NO side cannot fall back on their position as the default "safe" option.

Put simply, both sides need to renew their case and a fresh campaign put to the people to decide, whether we forge ahead in a UK outside the EU, its Single Market and Customs Union, or choose another path. With regards the latter, if the SNP go into it with returning to the EU as a key selling point, YES may lose again if they take for granted the large YES/Leave demographic.

My preference is still independence outside the EU a la Norway, Iceland and Switzerland, with the choice of EEA/EFTA and EU to be put to referendum after any successful Indyref2. That said, if we must return to the EU, I'd strongly advocate the Sweden / Denmark option, with retention of our own currency.

I agree "better together" style campaigns should also promote the union, rather than just be sceptical of indy.  There are signs the Uk Govenment wants to be more visible in Scotland, such as the fishing fleet modernisation drive.

I think the status quo argument still favours unionism; its not hard to quickly see benefits to Scotland from the union and independence becomes an ever bigger gamble. 

Independence would mean being outside both the EU and UK markets and - despite Sturgeons latest lies that Scotland would return to the EU "soon" - EU membership would not be something easily or quickly obtained.   This was clarified by the President of the EU Commission in 2014, after Alex Salmond made similar cavalier statements about Scotland waltzing into the EU. 

Leaving the UK to try join the EU would be an act of monumental stupidity as regards our economy, given our trade with rUK is 4 times greater than with the EU (and rising).  To think the people who advocate this are ones who complain about Brexit "stupidity".  We would also be moving to a situation where Scottish circumstances are not a major concern to the people who control the interest rates of our currency.  Which (in the EU scenario) would inevitably be the Euro - the idea that Scotland will pick and choose, and jostle with the EU on certain points of membership is I think naive.

I have argued with ppl on here before, who claim we can join the EU but somehow reject every manifestation of membership (notably the Euro) which isn't true and which also begs the question why do they want to join then?

Sturgeon / SNP generally always speak in terms of a return to the EU and so I do not see that they intend to have much of a discussion on that.  Which is a strange position for nationalists, given Scotland as an EU member would have considerably less autonomy as Scotland does in the post-Brexit UK. 

 

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/1/2021 at 3:51 PM, DD1903 said:

The snp are already achieving some of that sadly. Education quality is slipping in the country. Badly. 
 

Check out this article by Jill Stephenson, a Professor emeritus at Edinburgh Uni:

(Its a subscription site but you can get some articles for free)

Some excerpts:

Often the anti-English grievances peddled in the Scottish education sector are pure mythology. There are Scottish nationalists who clearly regard the film Braveheart – which appears on Education Scotland’s timeline – as a documentary rather than the parody it undoubtedly is.

The Scottish Qualifications Authority (SQA), the government’s awards and accreditation agency, was recently found to be prescribing credit to pupils who wrote that Winston Churchill sent tanks and thousands of English soldiers to Glasgow in 1919 to suppress a demonstration. However, this is a long-standing historical myth. While the Sheriff of Lanarkshire deployed police against the protestors and Scottish soldiers were on standby – after a panic about insurrection in the wake of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia – there were no tanks and no English soldiers in Glasgow’s George Square, where the demonstration took place. Winston Churchill was also not involved in the incident.

There is a further resemblance to the Bolsheviks in the way that the Scottish education secretary, John Swinney, regularly proclaims that Scottish schools have overfulfilled their quotas for tractor production. Well, not quite. But facts such as a fall in exam pass rates and the failure to narrow the attainment gap between schools in affluent and deprived areas are glossed over by Swinney with good news of ‘steady, incremental gains in attainment across the broad general education… according to international experts’. In reality, Scottish schools have fallen down the PISA international rankings – and now score lower than English schools in key subjects. The Scottish government has also abandoned its Survey of Literacy and Numeracy, because the results were becoming embarrassing. According to Professor Lindsay Paterson, ‘Scottish education is now a data desert’. What you do not measure cannot be assessed and shown up for the failure that it is.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-subversion-of-history-education-in-scotland#

[maryhilldon]

8 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said:

 

I have argued with ppl on here before, who claim we can join the EU but somehow reject every manifestation of membership (notably the Euro) which isn't true and which also begs the question why do they want to join then?

 

 

Sweden are in the EU but don't use the Euro?  

[Clydeside_Sheep]

On 1/1/2021 at 3:51 PM, DD1903 said:

as someone who voted for Independence, I've noted that some of the reasons that No voters give for saying no is how poor the snp do in the major areas. Trying to explain that a vote for Indy isn't a vote for snp doesn't work (mostly), but if the snp start running things better, then more people would be yes for sure.

I agree with your conclusion,:but for me the issue is not about baulking about voting for the poorly performing SNP,  but acknowledging the 20 years of evidence that Holyrood produces poorer outcomes than Westminster ever did.  Why then would you want to go further in the same direction?  If we took a trialist on, and it turned out he was shit, we would not go on to offer him a long term deal.

There is not one area of Scottish life, or one Scottish service, which has been improved by devolution, running things for ourselves.  Conversely there are a number of areas where things have become significantly worse, including education as you identify.  

Holyrood's main achievements are 'gay marriage' and free tampons.  Forgive me if I don't swoon!  They (of all Holyrood parties) have delivered nothing which could not have been delivered better and cheaper by the Scottish Office.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

12 minutes ago, maryhilldon said:

Sweden are in the EU but don't use the Euro?  

Thats right, that is a legacy from ~25-30 yrs ago when things were gearing up for the euro to be introduced.

At that time the EU was only coming into existence (from the EEC) and so (i) Eurocrats had much less power than they do now and (ii) it was easier for nations (ine the UK) to dissent, as the Eurocrats were happy to get things moving with most members on board, if not all.

At the time, Sweden managed to invent a loophole for it to be perpetually on the road to joining the euro, never actually joining.

Now the EU is very powerful and does not accept dissent and especially not from new members.  This is what drives their proud history of ignoring or overturning referendums in member states.  Brexit marks the first ever time that a national government has enacted what its people voted for, when a vote has gone against the EU.  That is a reason to be proud to be British.  British democracy is better and more honesty then European democracy.

Look what the EU commission says about Sweden:

"Sweden joined the European Union in 1995 and has not yet adopted the euro, but in accordance with the Treaty it will do so once it meets the necessary conditions."

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/euro/eu-countries-and-euro/sweden-and-euro_en

Although the Swedes got their loophole, its clear the EU still has expectation in this regard. 

And why do nations join the EU, then not want to take part in its schemes?  That's weird, huh?

Ever if Scotland did manage to reduce its deficit and meet other EU tests for membership, saying no to the Euro would definitely torpedo things.  Even more crazy to suggest we would be allowed to join using Sterling, which is controlled by the Bank of England.  So the Bank of England would dictate interest rates in part of the EU - aye right!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maryhilldon]

What about being an EEC country similar to Norway 

[Jocky Balboa]

49 minutes ago, maryhilldon said:

What about being an EEC country similar to Norway 

I've long advocated the EEA/EFTA style approach favoured by Norway, Iceland and Switzerland and see it as a key future trading bloc once the Eurozone fails (again, only an opinion, but I think the disparity in economies of the likes of Greece and Germany, where there is little political unison, will inevitably lead to failure of monetary union, though we could be a good 10 or even 15-20 years away from its implosion).

What the SNP leadership (and even otherwise articulate voices on the pro-independence side like Business for Scotland) neglect to mention is that while the EEA/EFTA countries have to pay to access the Single Market and/or Customs Union and "don't get a say in policy", they benefit from retention of sovereignty, in that they can both pick and choose Brussels legislation and, crucially, can sign bilateral trade deals with other markets.

In my view, the SNP's "independence in Europe" is a relic of the 1980's, when the European Project was something far different. Pragmatism should trump "feelz" and trading with rUK and the rest of the world would be far greater benefit to an independent Scotland than a slowly failing project.

[BrianFaePerth]

Following EEA means paying all the fees, adopting all the laws, and having no seat at the table.

[maryhilldon]

27 minutes ago, BrianFaePerth said:

Following EEA means paying all the fees, adopting all the laws, and having no seat at the table.

Iceland and Norway seem to have a better standard of living than Scotland? How does that work? 

[BrianFaePerth]

7 minutes ago, maryhilldon said:

Iceland and Norway seem to have a better standard of living than Scotland? How does that work? 

Nothing to do with the EU.