Reserve & Youth Teams Thread

[Millertime]

28 minutes ago, minijc said:

It's not about proving them wrong, that's the wrong way for fans to look at it as well.

Look at Lewis Carrol, he's decided to stay here right and that's great however without the proper pathway it could end up being a terrible decision by him, we may never know if he was any good or whatever as there appears to be a reluctance to give more youngsters a chance to show what they can do in the first team.

I'll also add that to help produce more young talent every age group should be playing the same way, there should be a very clear blueprint and ethos on how those teams play, maybe then they'll have a better chance of stepping up when a chance comes their way.

So Carroll has decided to stay, surely that's a positive for the guys in charge?

In my view, plenty young players get a chance

From what I've seen, very few who get a chance have, ultimately, deserved it

I mean look at Ryan Duncan

What the hell is going on there?

He looks properly atrocious 

[minijc]

14 minutes ago, Millertime said:

So Carroll has decided to stay, surely that's a positive for the guys in charge?

In my view, plenty young players get a chance

From what I've seen, very few who get a chance have, ultimately, deserved it

I mean look at Ryan Duncan

What the hell is going on there?

He looks properly atrocious 

It is but I haven't dug out any of them individually, as I understand some of them do great work but it's the club outlook on the youth set up which isn't quite right in my opinion.

As for Duncan, he's regressed massively and that is concerning, though he was ok in the odd chances he got to start with but last 18months has been really bad.

[RabidGiraffe]

11 minutes ago, minijc said:

It is but I haven't dug out any of them individually, as I understand some of them do great work but it's the club outlook on the youth set up which isn't quite right in my opinion.

As for Duncan, he's regressed massively and that is concerning, though he was ok in the odd chances he got to start with but last 18months has been really bad.

There seems to be an imbalance/conflict between having guys like Duncan and Milne in the first team to make up the squad numbers versus their development.  Having them in the first team squad means they are available when called upon due to injuries/suspensions, but they only every get a handful of games and don't progress.  It would be better for them to be loaned out at championship level getting regular game time there.

Reserve football seems like a good solution for fringe players and youngsters, but does that mean more cost in retaining more players in the 18 - 21 age group to make up the numbers? (we seem to show a lot of players the door at 18 when they are still developing). 

[Millertime]

20 minutes ago, minijc said:

It is but I haven't dug out any of them individually, as I understand some of them do great work but it's the club outlook on the youth set up which isn't quite right in my opinion.

As for Duncan, he's regressed massively and that is concerning, though he was ok in the odd chances he got to start with but last 18months has been really bad.

I think the bottom line is, very few youth players make it at any club they come through

The proof for your angle would be if we released any who went on to prosper (cue someone mentioning Jack grimmer) or even still, players that at the tender age thought they could do better,  ie terry Taylor

How's his career panned out off the back of that decision?

[fine-n-dandy]

5 hours ago, RabidGiraffe said:

What success rate do we expect with the young players?  What is a good return?  One player each season makes the breakthrough to first team regular? Two?  And what constitutes a first team regular - 20 appearances or simply making the matchday squad? 

I would say that one should make it into first team squad every season & would even say that a rule should be implemented (even as an extra squad member rule) & we should expect one of those making it into first team regular every two/three seasons 

 

If UEFA (or SFA even) made an extra squad slot available each season strictly for home grown young players it would see more breakthroughs imo.

Extra squad player rule only available to each player in their breakthrough season & it up to the player/club to make the squad permanently tbe following season making way for next using said ‘extra’ slot 

they normally sign 2 year deals as first pro contracts don’t they? So makes the second season all more important for club/players to make decisions & gives clubs chance to extend first pro contract beyond the 2 years in first season if they really shine.

[RabidGiraffe]

Would an American sports style draft system ever work?  Have any countries in the world of football tried this type of method for developing young players before?

Rather than have clubs running their own youth systems, have a series of independent regional academies which, for example, are funded by all the clubs paying £X to be a member of the system.

Every year clubs pick one or two graduates (not sure which age they would "graduate" at.  18?) to join their first team pool.  Once the SPL teams have had their pick then the Championship clubs get their pick, etc.

Clubs can trade their picks or release them back to the academy in the first 1 - 2 years until they reach a certain age.

If they later sell the player then a percentage of the fee goes to the academy system.

Young kids are then always training with the best of their age group and with the best coaches.  Less young players there just to make up the numbers who are never going to make it.  Still opportunities to go on loan to League One/Two/Highland/Lowland if coaches feel that's best for that player.

Fuck knows, I'm just making shit up while wondering if that type of system would work.

[NEM]

1 hour ago, minijc said:

It is but I haven't dug out any of them individually, as I understand some of them do great work but it's the club outlook on the youth set up which isn't quite right in my opinion.

As for Duncan, he's regressed massively and that is concerning, though he was ok in the odd chances he got to start with but last 18months has been really bad.

He’s wasn’t helped by that gluepot Robson playing him out of position. Needs a run of games on the wing to get his confidence back, probably not going to get that here so should probably go out on loan first half of next season. 

[starryfish]

The regression in Ryan Duncan is very disappointing, at times last season, especially when Shinnie was suspended he did very well, he won’t get a look in to start on Saturday for example in Shinnie’s absence once again.

[RabidGiraffe]

1 hour ago, NEM said:

He’s wasn’t helped by that gluepot Robson playing him out of position. Needs a run of games on the wing to get his confidence back, probably not going to get that here so should probably go out on loan first half of next season. 

Aye, seeing him played as a wing back in Robson's 5-3-2 he looked uncomfortable to say the least.

When he came on as a sub against Dundee last weekend he had some good moments and some terrible.  Some good balls into the box but he couldn't dribble passed a traffic cone.

[RUL]

11 hours ago, RabidGiraffe said:

Would an American sports style draft system ever work?  Have any countries in the world of football tried this type of method for developing young players before?

Rather than have clubs running their own youth systems, have a series of independent regional academies which, for example, are funded by all the clubs paying £X to be a member of the system.

Every year clubs pick one or two graduates (not sure which age they would "graduate" at.  18?) to join their first team pool.  Once the SPL teams have had their pick then the Championship clubs get their pick, etc.

Clubs can trade their picks or release them back to the academy in the first 1 - 2 years until they reach a certain age.

If they later sell the player then a percentage of the fee goes to the academy system.

Young kids are then always training with the best of their age group and with the best coaches.  Less young players there just to make up the numbers who are never going to make it.  Still opportunities to go on loan to League One/Two/Highland/Lowland if coaches feel that's best for that player.

Fuck knows, I'm just making shit up while wondering if that type of system would work.

France did it. The academies were run by the region and you signed to “north east” for example. I think the clubs resented the lack of control. It’s ok in one club cities or regions but would be unworkable in say Glasgow 

[King Street Loon]

Edit, wrong thread 

[RUL]

13 hours ago, Millertime said:

I think the bottom line is, very few youth players make it at any club they come through

The proof for your angle would be if we released any who went on to prosper (cue someone mentioning Jack grimmer) or even still, players that at the tender age thought they could do better,  ie terry Taylor

How's his career panned out off the back of that decision?

This is actually a great point about youth development. We are all guilty of looking at u18 results but they shouldn’t be a barometer of success. 
 

I attended 2001 final which we won but very few of that side amounted to anything. . The noticeable aspect is when you have physical players you get results at youth level.

But when these players play against men that advantage disappears and it’s why coaches prefer experienced players.

I do think technically the Aberdeen youth players are significantly behind elite standard and actually it’s been on a downward trend since early 90s despite lots of work to correct this. The club has recognised the issue but invariably resorts to tried and tested measures. This is testing for height at a young age and speed tests to work out maximum sprint speed, as well as other hidden tests 

This is really borne out watching international youth games. The gap is huge between Scotland and other nations.  We try to overcome the technical differences with pace and power but for us punters we are watching noticeably poorer players each season but who are getting more and more athletic. 
 

I think you need mixture of technique and power/pace but clubs will always favour power/pace as it’s more effective.

[Studebaker-90]

Should just do away with it. None of them will make it anyway. 

[Ramandu]

21 hours ago, Millertime said:

I think the bottom line is, very few youth players make it at any club they come through

This is the truth.

To play at U18 level you need to be one of the best ~16 players in that age cohort. But to play for the first team you need to be better than players from each of the previous 15 age cohorts.

If we never signed anyone and exclusively played players who were developed through our youth system, we'd still expect to average only one player breaking through each season.

[Dons79]

13 minutes ago, Ramandu said:

This is the truth.

To play at U18 level you need to be one of the best ~16 players in that age cohort. But to play for the first team you need to be better than players from each of the previous 15 age cohorts.

If we never signed anyone and exclusively played players who were developed through our youth system, we'd still expect to average only one player breaking through each season.

And there’s no stopping bigger clubs coming in and poaching the elite ones before they sign a professional contract, like what happened to pirie.

Gilmour for Huns 

vata for Celtic possibly?

[fine-n-dandy]

21 hours ago, RabidGiraffe said:

Would an American sports style draft system ever work?  Have any countries in the world of football tried this type of method for developing young players before?

Rather than have clubs running their own youth systems, have a series of independent regional academies which, for example, are funded by all the clubs paying £X to be a member of the system.

Every year clubs pick one or two graduates (not sure which age they would "graduate" at.  18?) to join their first team pool.  Once the SPL teams have had their pick then the Championship clubs get their pick, etc.

Clubs can trade their picks or release them back to the academy in the first 1 - 2 years until they reach a certain age.

If they later sell the player then a percentage of the fee goes to the academy system.

Young kids are then always training with the best of their age group and with the best coaches.  Less young players there just to make up the numbers who are never going to make it.  Still opportunities to go on loan to League One/Two/Highland/Lowland if coaches feel that's best for that player.

Fuck knows, I'm just making shit up while wondering if that type of system would work.

No because the arse cheeks would just buy all the early picks from clubs. Would be a complete waste of time as they would end up with the top 10 picks between them at least every season.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

2 hours ago, Dons79 said:

And there’s no stopping bigger clubs coming in and poaching the elite ones before they sign a professional contract, like what happened to pirie.

Gilmour for Huns 

vata for Celtic possibly?

Ah now hold up there Shylo

Thats not quite why the Hun lost Gilmour.

[Dons79]

25 minutes ago, strachanmcgheegoal said:

Ah now hold up there Shylo

Thats not quite why the Hun lost Gilmour.

Your right, apologies, they lost him cause he couldn’t look at himself in the mirror and wear that strip and consider himself human.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Couldn’t guarantee his pay cheque wouldn’t bounce you mean.

[Dons79]

6 minutes ago, strachanmcgheegoal said:

Couldn’t guarantee his pay cheque wouldn’t bounce you mean.

He’s from ardrossan, used to that anyway😂

[Tommy]

U 18’s beat Accies 2-1 this evening.

[donswin1983]

12 hours ago, RUL said:

This is actually a great point about youth development. We are all guilty of looking at u18 results but they shouldn’t be a barometer of success. 
 

I attended 2001 final which we won but very few of that side amounted to anything. . The noticeable aspect is when you have physical players you get results at youth level.

But when these players play against men that advantage disappears and it’s why coaches prefer experienced players.

I do think technically the Aberdeen youth players are significantly behind elite standard and actually it’s been on a downward trend since early 90s despite lots of work to correct this. The club has recognised the issue but invariably resorts to tried and tested measures. This is testing for height at a young age and speed tests to work out maximum sprint speed, as well as other hidden tests 

This is really borne out watching international youth games. The gap is huge between Scotland and other nations.  We try to overcome the technical differences with pace and power but for us punters we are watching noticeably poorer players each season but who are getting more and more athletic. 
 

I think you need mixture of technique and power/pace but clubs will always favour power/pace as it’s more effective.

Excellent post. It’s tragic though. My own view is we have kids with loads of technical ability, but, to your point, the emphasis is on size and strength in Scotland and the development of players, as technival footballers comes a distant second. There are countries that play their talented youngsters with other of a similar size and structure, irrispective of age (within reason) which makes the player development, almost completely technical. I love this approach. 
Also, the coaching in this country is poor. Kids with technical ability arent encouraged to keep the ball like the were previously. It’s very much, 2 touch, pass and move. Nothing wrong with that, but it coaches the technical talent out the players.

we remain light years behind other European countries in terms of player development. Big and quicker is better in Scotland.

never forget when Jimmy C was asked at some AGM after drink thing, why Byrne was playing left back instead of someone else. His response was ‘I prefer big cunts’.

glad all the time in Holland served him well

[sheepcrooky]

5 minutes ago, Tommy said:

U 18’s beat Accies 2-1 this evening.

We must be awful close to winning this league. 

[RabidGiraffe]

3 hours ago, fine-n-dandy said:

No because the arse cheeks would just buy all the early picks from clubs. Would be a complete waste of time as they would end up with the top 10 picks between them at least every season.

In my imaginary, never going to happen system, the ugly twins can't do that.  The team promoted from the Championship gets first pick of the draft.  Then the teams that finished 11th, 10th, 9th, etc.  Teams are only allowed one trade.  On current league placings those weegie bastards get last pick, which is why it will never happen.

[RUL]

13 hours ago, Ramandu said:

This is the truth.

To play at U18 level you need to be one of the best ~16 players in that age cohort. But to play for the first team you need to be better than players from each of the previous 15 age cohorts.

If we never signed anyone and exclusively played players who were developed through our youth system, we'd still expect to average only one player breaking through each season.

but if you adopted a policy of 3/4 you actually never know what could happen, exposure to higher standard at younger ages may push development?
 

If the youth coach was told at any point your left back, for example, may be called up it would surely create a better environment. At moment as you say it’s maybe one player who’s probably been identified as the best of the group 2 or more years ago who’s given the same opportunity. The counter argument is always that those released don’t go on to achieve much so likely weren’t good enough. 
 

always mind tierney broke in at Celtic because he wasn’t in u21 team and they needed an extra body at training so he was moved over. Sometimes you just need luck 

[strachanmcgheegoal]

55 minutes ago, RUL said:

but if you adopted a policy of 3/4 you actually never know what could happen, exposure to higher standard at younger ages may push development?
 

If the youth coach was told at any point your left back, for example, may be called up it would surely create a better environment. At moment as you say it’s maybe one player who’s probably been identified as the best of the group 2 or more years ago who’s given the same opportunity. The counter argument is always that those released don’t go on to achieve much so likely weren’t good enough. 
 

always mind tierney broke in at Celtic because he wasn’t in u21 team and they needed an extra body at training so he was moved over. Sometimes you just need luck 

By the same token I remember Jess and Booth arriving and thinking oh, they’re very young and green and…….Holy Fucksticks….

[Ramandu]

1 hour ago, RUL said:

always mind tierney broke in at Celtic because he wasn’t in u21 team and they needed an extra body at training so he was moved over. Sometimes you just need luck 

Absolutely.

McKenna had a terrible loan at Ayr before he broke through. We played Motherwell twice in a week, and lost the first one so he was chucked in for the second game, more to change things around than anything. He played well and went on from there. 

Then he got a lucky break with Scotland when loads of other centre backs pulled out (trip to Mexico maybe)?

He might have made it anyway, but it's not a given. There's a universe out there where we beat Motherwell twice and McKenna never breaks through.