Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[eeps]

It's no coincidence that the people on here owning up to being against independence are the ones known for being thick as pig shit. Food for thought guys.

Aye some intellectual heavy lifting from the tartan pansy brigade right enough

[Jocky Balboa]

Spastic comment was a response to being called a toad as if you didn't know that. I'm interested to know why you are suggesting the difference on offer is between independent Scotland and a country run by Johnson and Farage. That doesn't make any sense to me. What exactly is the difference between your politics and Nigel farage? Both nationalists both want out of EU

[caledonia]

I don't think "many" countries in the EU dont use the euro. Denmark voted narrowly not to use it but it was only the arse falling out of EU nations finances that finally put the matter to bed (for now - I would bet it will return).

 

Sweden doesn't use it presently, but is obliged to use it eventually, just as Scotland would be.

 

Go ask them in Greece, Italy or Spain about the problems with using the euro.

 

hahahaha not this shit again

Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden,and uk already don't use the euro (sweden for over 20 year)

 

You must know this or are incredibly thick

 

But this is all unionists have is scare stories next you will be coming out with the already debunked "rest of the uk wont trade with Scotland" and hard border shit

 

Who gives a fuck as it was not a problem for any other independence seeking country only Scotland as they are Englands cash cow

[caledonia]

Thank you for your reply, happy to clarify via a few key points:

 

- 1. The principle of self-determination:

 

 

The Tories are the default party in England, even among many working class voters south of Birmingham, as they have been in power approximately 2/3 of the time since WWII. Conversely, Scotland hasn't voted Tory at a national election since the 1950's, so for most of mine and my parents' lifetime, Scotland has had a government it convincingly rejected - and who never will win an election there again. I care little for Labour or the SNP, but I believe Scotland should get the government it chooses. Post-independence, I hope it will be a more Libertarian and centrist party, but will respect democracy.

 

- 2. The EU membership question:

 

I am a YES/Leave voter and have made clear on here my disapproval of Sturgeon and Murrell's tying together what should be two separate issues. This may cost us a YES vote, as the elephant in the room is this; while Northern Ireland had a distinction between Leave/Remain (DUP supporters voted out, Republicans overwhelmingly Remain) in Scotland the 60-40 split was comparable between Unionists and Nationalists. Also, a significant number tactically voted Remain to trigger Indyref2 ASAP.

 

As a side note, why do you equate my Leave stance with Farage et al, when many of the biggest and longest standing Eurosceptics are on the LEFT (SNP pre-1987, Sinn Fein until recently, Tony Benn, Scargill, Galloway, Tommy Sheridan, Corbyn, etc.)? It is one of the greatest deceptions of the mainstream media that Leave is a preserve of the hard right and this has stifled the wider EU debate and let Brussels/Strasbourg far too easily off the hook.

 

- 3. The wider independence picture:

 

That independence STILL doesn't appear to have a majority (even the maverick Wings over Scotland commissioned polls that suggest YES is behind!) despite the utter ineptitude of the UK government, should worry those of us who advocate it.

 

It is my honest opinion that the SNP would do themselves (and the whole independence debate) a great service, if they would seriously consider the EEA/EFTA option, with a view to a negotiated EU deal... then put it to a referendum within the first parliamentary term after independence. It would retain the YES/Leave demographic (remember, at 38% the Leave support is starting from a higher point than independence did in 2011/12, when less than 30% advocated it. I didn't see the SNP saying then that it shouldn't be taken seriously).

 

I admit did this although it was close i can see the benefits of both although more and more now i would swing towards remain.

SNP piss me off with a good few things and policy's but i see it as the only way to get indy (all this gender crap is going to far for me but that's a different topic)

Also some things about immigration annoys me somewhat although i know Scotland needs it (and i do think the snp will lose votes because of them going to far trying to be inclusive in both these areas)

[eeps]

Thank you for your reply, happy to clarify via a few key points:

 

- 1. The principle of self-determination:

 

 

The Tories are the default party in England, even among many working class voters south of Birmingham, as they have been in power approximately 2/3 of the time since WWII. Conversely, Scotland hasn't voted Tory at a national election since the 1950's, so for most of mine and my parents' lifetime, Scotland has had a government it convincingly rejected - and who never will win an election there again. I care little for Labour or the SNP, but I believe Scotland should get the government it chooses. Post-independence, I hope it will be a more Libertarian and centrist party, but will respect democracy.

 

- 2. The EU membership question:

 

I am a YES/Leave voter and have made clear on here my disapproval of Sturgeon and Murrell's tying together what should be two separate issues. This may cost us a YES vote, as the elephant in the room is this; while Northern Ireland had a distinction between Leave/Remain (DUP supporters voted out, Republicans overwhelmingly Remain) in Scotland the 60-40 split was comparable between Unionists and Nationalists. Also, a significant number tactically voted Remain to trigger Indyref2 ASAP.

 

As a side note, why do you equate my Leave stance with Farage et al, when many of the biggest and longest standing Eurosceptics are on the LEFT (SNP pre-1987, Sinn Fein until recently, Tony Benn, Scargill, Galloway, Tommy Sheridan, Corbyn, etc.)? It is one of the greatest deceptions of the mainstream media that Leave is a preserve of the hard right and this has stifled the wider EU debate and let Brussels/Strasbourg far too easily off the hook.

 

- 3. The wider independence picture:

 

That independence STILL doesn't appear to have a majority (even the maverick Wings over Scotland commissioned polls that suggest YES is behind!) despite the utter ineptitude of the UK government, should worry those of us who advocate it.

 

It is my honest opinion that the SNP would do themselves (and the whole independence debate) a great service, if they would seriously consider the EEA/EFTA option, with a view to a negotiated EU deal... then put it to a referendum within the first parliamentary term after independence. It would retain the YES/Leave demographic (remember, at 38% the Leave support is starting from a higher point than independence did in 2011/12, when less than 30% advocated it. I didn't see the SNP saying then that it shouldn't be taken seriously).

So what's the difference between you and Farage politically?

[alscotoz]

Educate me. What's the problem with joining the Euro? Is it a big deal, or simply that it's not called the pound?

[BrianFaePerth]

Educate me. What's the problem with joining the Euro? Is it a big deal, or simply that it's not called the pound?

It's foreign.

[Foster14]

 Also, a significant number tactically voted Remain to trigger Indyref2 ASAP.

 

How would that have worked?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

It actually saddens me that you can be so retarded CS.

 

Aye Sweden has to join the euro it just hasn’t joined the euro because there’s this son of god who came to earth and said that they have to and they actually have but no one has noticed.

 

Kill yourself.

 

Counties you CLAIM the euro has been bad for Spain, Greece, Italy.

 

Countries doing fine with the euro, every single fucking other one.

 

Kill yourself.

 

It its not a "claim" its a fact.  These countries are still trying to recover from the financial crash as they had no control over their own currency and so got buggered.

 

Greek unemployment - 18%

Spanish unemployment - 14.3%

Italian unemployment - 10.5%

 

Scotland (within UK) unemployment - 3.5%

 

Big differences in those numbers. 

 

We would undoubtedly see unemployment rise in an indy scotland, as our tactic of creating public sector jobs to keep people off the brew would not be as viable.

 

I am also surprised you claim every other euro user is doing "fine".  For example:

 

Germany - on verge of recession

France - 4th most indebted country in the world

[Foster14]

It its not a "claim" its a fact.  These countries are still trying to recover from the financial crash as they had no control over their own currency and so got buggered.

 

Greek unemployment - 18%

Spanish unemployment - 14.3%

Italian unemployment - 10.5%

 

Scotland (within UK) unemployment - 3.5%

 

Big differences in those numbers. 

 

We would undoubtedly see unemployment rise in an indy scotland, as our tactic of creating public sector jobs to keep people off the brew would not be as viable.

 

I am also surprised you claim every other euro user is doing "fine".  For example:

 

Germany - on verge of recession

France - 4th most indebted country in the world

 

Are the US/UK doing bad?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Educate me. What's the problem with joining the Euro? Is it a big deal, or simply that it's not called the pound?

 

Currently, as part of the UK, we enjoy the Bank of England and British Government making financial decisions to suit the whole of the UK - including us. Our economy is one of the most globalised and the service sector makes up about 80% of our GDP.

 

However, the Eurozone is a far too diverse mix of different types of economy, for a single monetary policy to be suitable for every member nation.  The result is its hard to set interest rates etc which work for all the different nations.  Compare e.g. the Germany economy, built on exporting huge numbers of luxury cars etc, with the Spanish economy, heavy dependent on tourism.  

 

The result is that the most powerful nations (Germany, France) ensure the Euro is run to suit them, and everyone else gets fucked.  We got a perfect example of this during the global financial crisis and aftermath.

 

The response of the indy crowd is just to deny reality and start ranting about unrelated topics, as we see above.

 

Additionally, individual members lose their ability to tinker with their own currency - eg it can be useful to devalue it, if you get into financial difficulty.

 

Present, we are members of a currency run to suit us and which our government has full control over.

 

None of those things would be true of Indy Scotland (or even the UK) as member of the Eurozone.

Edit - plus, heavily indebted nations like France and italy will inevitably run into problems at some point, meaning problems for the euro.

[Parklife]

Germany - on verge of recession

France - 4th most indebted country in the world

UK - 2nd most indebted country in the world. 8th in the world on a per capita basis (doing worse than France, Greece, Portugal, Spain, etc).

 

Scotland is so lucky to be part of this though.

[Parklife]

The response of the indy crowd is just to correctly point out that Scotland cannot be made to join the Euro if it is not in our interests to do so.

Fixed it for you.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Perhaps our European statesmen could enlighten us:

 

Your main defence to the drawbacks of joining the Euro is to state that, although we would be obliged to join, we will fuck about with our economy to ensure we never meet the criteria and so don't join.

 

Hmmm.  Questions:

 

(1) Why do you want to join the EU at all, if you are so averse to joining its institutions such as the single currency?  

 

(2) If countries with formal obligations can avoid these by fucking about, it means the EU is a joke organisation.  Why do you want to join a joke organisation?

 

There is a real lack of coherence in these arguments, which is why the 2014 referendum was lost.    

 

The brexit negotiations show how seriously the EU regards the obligations of member states.

 

I think we all know a Sturgeon-led regime would agree to anything the EU stipulated.

[caledonia]

Perhaps our European statesmen could enlighten us:

 

Your main defence to the drawbacks of joining the Euro is to state that, although we would be obliged to join, we will fuck about with our economy to ensure we never meet the criteria and so don't join.

 

Hmmm. Questions:

 

(1) Why do you want to join the EU at all, if you are so averse to joining its institutions such as the single currency?

 

(2) If countries with formal obligations can avoid these by fucking about, it means the EU is a joke organisation. Why do you want to join a joke organisation?

 

There is a real lack of coherence in these arguments, which is why the 2014 referendum was lost.

 

The brexit negotiations show how seriously the EU regards the obligations of member states.

 

I think we all know a Sturgeon-led regime would agree to anything the EU stipulated.

Answer to question 1 is that not what the UK is already doing

 

Answer to question 2 we are in a joke organisation its called the Uk

[Parklife]

Perhaps our European statesmen could enlighten us:

 

Your main defence to the drawbacks of joining the Euro is to state that, although we would be obliged to join, we will fuck about with our economy to ensure we never meet the criteria and so don't join.

 

Hmmm. Questions:

 

(1) Why do you want to join the EU at all, if you are so averse to joining its institutions such as the single currency? .

I'm not "so averse" to joining the Euro. I do however think a Scottish currency would be better for us. Our vast national resources would give us a strong balance of payments and ensure our currency was strong and stable (not May's brand of this, actually strong and stable).

(2) If countries with formal obligations can avoid these by fucking about, it means the EU is a joke organisation. Why do you want to join a joke organisation?

.

It's not "fucking about". It's doing what is best for the country. Scotland at no point would have to join the Euro if it did not want to. I'm unsure why you're unable to grasp this, despite being told it and presented with the evidence to support it multiple times.

There is a real lack of coherence in these arguments, which is why the 2014 referendum was lost.

.

Nope. It was lost mainly due to an overwhelmingly biased and negative media.

 

Currency was however the biggest weak spot, so I'm glad to see it being addressed.

The brexit negotiations show how seriously the EU regards the obligations of member states.

 

Indeed. And rightly so.

I think we all know a Sturgeon-led regime would agree to anything the EU stipulated.

Nope. You just made something up and said "we all know" in an attempt to give a fabricated position validity. It'd be a bit like me saying "we all know that Clydeside sheep is a nonce" and expecting that to hold water as a valid argument.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

UK - 2nd most indebted country in the world. 8th in the world on a per capita basis (doing worse than France, Greece, Portugal, Spain, etc).

 

Scotland is so lucky to be part of this though.

 

Rubbish.

 

US, Japan, China, France, Italy is the top 5.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/03/29/wont-long-france-overtakes-italy-worlds-fourth-indebted-country/

 

Look 2 of the top 5 are Euro members, what a healthy currency that will be.

 

At least the US etc can always print money, France and Italy cant.  All the worse for France, as their debt is mostly external, whereas Italys is mostly internal.

[Parklife]

Rubbish.

 

US, Japan, China, France, Italy is the top 5.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/03/29/wont-long-france-overtakes-italy-worlds-fourth-indebted-country/

 

Look 2 of the top 5 are Euro members, what a healthy currency that will be.

 

At least the US etc can always print money, France and Italy cant. All the worse for France, as their debt is mostly external, whereas Italys is mostly internal.

I was looking at public & private debt. Are you referring to public debt only?

 

UK's public debt is 87% of GDP, compared to France's 97% of GDP. (Ireland, that you so despise, is away down at 69%. Scandinavian countries about 40%)

 

It's a bit silly just to look at big numbers and not relate this back to GDP.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Answer to question 1 is that not what the UK is already doing

No we are leaving the EU, having formally rejected Euro membership previously.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I'm not "so averse" to joining the Euro. I do however think a Scottish currency would be better for usOur vast national resources would give us a strong balance of payments and ensure our currency was strong and stable (not May's brand of this, actually strong and stable).

It's not "fucking about". It's doing what is best for the country. Scotland at no point would have to join the Euro if it did not want to. I'm unsure why you're unable to grasp this, despite being told it and presented with the evidence to support it multiple times.

Nope. It was lost mainly due to an overwhelmingly biased and negative media.

It is so fucking about, to deliberately ensure you fail to meet obligations. Deliberately failing to meet the criteria is the sole mechanism which has been stated to avoid joining.

 

You agree with me that our own currency is best, like what we have now.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I was looking at public & private debt. Are you referring to public debt only?

 

UK's public debt is 87% of GDP, compared to France's 97% of GDP. (Ireland, that you so despise, is away down at 69%. Scandinavian countries about 40%)

 

It's a bit silly just to look at big numbers and not relate this back to GDP.

If you want to do it on a debt vs GDP ration, Uk is about num 30 in the world.

 

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt/

 

Either way we are much better off than France.

 

Something like 6 of the top 21 nations are euro users, by that criteria.

[Redforever86]

It its not a "claim" its a fact.  These countries are still trying to recover from the financial crash as they had no control over their own currency and so got buggered.

 

Greek unemployment - 18%

Spanish unemployment - 14.3%

Italian unemployment - 10.5%

 

Scotland (within UK) unemployment - 3.5%

 

Big differences in those numbers. 

 

We would undoubtedly see unemployment rise in an indy scotland, as our tactic of creating public sector jobs to keep people off the brew would not be as viable.

 

I am also surprised you claim every other euro user is doing "fine".  For example:

 

Germany - on verge of recession

France - 4th most indebted country in the world

 

You can't single out countries like Greece or Spain (done far far better than the UK since the euro) and say they are doing terrible because of the Euro, they'd most likely be doing far worse with out it. 

 

Since the creation of the Euro in 1999, this is how each countries GDP has changed. 

 

UK +57% 

 

Germany +67%

France +73%

Italy +55%

Spain +107% 

Netherlands +87%

Greece +40%

Ireland +238%

 

These are facts from the world bank, spread over a wide selection of countries who use the euro. Unemployment isn't really effected by which currency you use that much, more to do with the labour market and laws. For every Greece (the only euro country I'd accept that hasn't done great) there are many many success stories. 

 

The UK is a washed up old slut selling it's self to whoever it can (wait till Brexit kick in and the yanks rape us), best to get out before it's too late. 

[craegDAMH]

It is so fucking about, to deliberately ensure you fail to meet obligations. Deliberately failing to meet the criteria is the sole mechanism which has been stated to avoid joining.

 

You agree with me that our own currency is best, like what we have now.

 

One of the criteria is joining the Exchange Rate Mechanism and being a part of that for 2 years. Joining means pegging your exchange rate to the Euro. Not joining the ERM is not "fucking about" with the economy. 

[Redforever86]

You agree with me that our own currency is best, like what we have now.

 

We don't have our own currency just now, the north of England doesn't even have it's own currency. The £ is for London, rates set by an independent board made up of bankers for bankers.

 

The Euro may be used to help German exports but that would help Scotland (export lead economy), more than the strong £ which London wants for it's service based economy. 

 

I agree we would be slightly better off with our own currency, far far far better off than the rUK£.

 

So currency isn't an issue we all agree, next argument for us to debunk CS?

[BrianFaePerth]

But would an independent Scotland be happier?

[Parklife]

But would an independent Scotland be happier?

You're really obsessed with the happiness survey, aren't you?

 

Let it go, Bri.

[caledonia]

Welcome to Scotland the only country in the world that would implode if GDP went down.

 

Things like inflation, currency ,GDP and unemployment go up and down in normal countries all the time

 

Talk of all this is just scare/deflection tactics used by the unionists because they have no other argument

[Redforever86]

But would an independent Scotland be happier?

 

 

If you returned, no. 

[BrianFaePerth]

If you returned, no.

Like that would happen LOL

[Henry]

If your wife decides to come back you don't have much choice in the matter.