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Assisted Suicide


dj_bollocks

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Rather you should take anything in the mainstream media (or coming out of policiticans mouths) with a large pinch of salt.

 

Anything on that website is 100% accurate.

 

Lifesitenews produces itself, its a non-profit news organisation.

 

Here is stuff from their "about" page:

 

LifeSiteNews Principles

1. Accuracy in content is given high priority. News and information tips from readers are encouraged and validated. Valid corrections are always welcome. Writing and research is of a professional calibre.

 

(The mainstream media do not give accuracy or corrections high priority)

 

and

 

LifeSiteNews.com U.S. and Canada are now separate incorporated non-profit organizations, are not involved in direct political action and do not support or oppose political candidates or parties. LifeSiteNews is strictly a news and information service.

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/about

Aye, and Celtic and Sevco don't promote violence and sectarianism within their support and club.

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Rather you should take anything in the mainstream media (or coming out of policiticans mouths) with a large pinch of salt.

 

Anything on that website is 100% accurate.

 

Lifesitenews produces itself, its a non-profit news organisation.

 

Here is stuff from their "about" page:

 

LifeSiteNews Principles

1. Accuracy in content is given high priority. News and information tips from readers are encouraged and validated. Valid corrections are always welcome. Writing and research is of a professional calibre.

 

(The mainstream media do not give accuracy or corrections high priority)

 

and

 

LifeSiteNews.com U.S. and Canada are now separate incorporated non-profit organizations, are not involved in direct political action and do not support or oppose political candidates or parties. LifeSiteNews is strictly a news and information service.

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/about

 

 

2. LifeSiteNews.com emphasizes the social worth of traditional Judeo-Christian principles but is also respectful of all authentic religions and cultures that esteem life, family and universal norms of morality.

 

Pro-Christian and pro-life website in publishing a pro-life article shocker.

 

I'm not quite sure why I'm surprised.

 

You regularly back up your views on Catholicism with items from Catholic websites.

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2. LifeSiteNews.com emphasizes the social worth of traditional Judeo-Christian principles but is also respectful of all authentic religions and cultures that esteem life, family and universal norms of morality.[/size]

 

Pro-Christian and pro-life website in publishing a pro-life article shocker.

 

I'm not quite sure why I'm surprised.

 

You regularly back up your views on Catholicism with items from Catholic websites.

Shut it min.

At least he is allowed outside on a Sunday.

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If I'm dying of cancer I'm necking pills.

 

If I'm a veg then my wife will HAPPILY stick a pillow over my face, and laugh while she's doing it, the fucking bitch.

 

Point being the law can say what they want, they don't get to decide how and when we check out.

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If I'm dying of cancer I'm necking pills.

 

If I'm a veg then my wife will HAPPILY stick a pillow over my face, and laugh while she's doing it, the fucking bitch.

 

Point being the law can say what they want, they don't get to decide how and when we check out.

 

they don't get to decide, but wouldn't it be nice to know that after your loving wife has helped you out of this terminal bind, she'll not go to jail?

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Pro-Christian and pro-life website in publishing a pro-life article shocker

Harcus in pish argument shock! ;)

 

You regularly back up your views on Catholicism with items from Catholic websites.

I have sometimes posted news items from catholic blogs, but when it comes to a debate I only use sources which everyone must accept (statistics, science, historical facts, whatever)

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Harcus in pish argument shock! ;)

 

 

I have sometimes posted news items from catholic blogs, but when it comes to a debate I only use sources which everyone must accept (statistics, science, historical facts, whatever)

You're an interesting character CS. I always find you make the effort to back up your arguments with decent research but I'm curious, for a practicing Catholic (assuming you are yeah?) you talk a lot about alcohol/drugs and other things which surely contradict the lifestyle expected of someone with a faith?

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Heres an interesting juxtaposition of views regarding Euthanasia (my emphasis in bold):

"My underlying motive was the desire to help individuals who could not help themselves... such considerations should not be regarded as inhuman. Nor did I feel it in any way to be unethical or immoral...

I am convinced that if Hippocrates were alive today he would change the wording of his oath... in which a doctor is forbidden to administer poison to an invalid even on demand...

I have a perfectly clear conscience about the part I played in the affair. I am perfectly conscious that when I said yes to euthanasia I did so with the greatest conviction, just as it is my conviction today that it is righ
t."

 

SS Doctor Karl Brandt

Adolf Hitlers Personal Physician

Director of the Nazi Aktion T4 euthanasia program, as well as forced abortions for women classed as "genetically defective"

Quotes from his testimony at the Nuremberg Trials, 1946

He was charged with war crimes, crimes against humanity, mass murder - and the conspiracy to commit all of the same - as well as membership of a criminal organisation (The Nazi SS)

He was hanged in 1948, at Landsberg Prison

 

 

 

"The dying should be kept as free of pain as possible. Some wish to blur the distinction between the use of medication to manage pain even at the risk of hastening the dying process, and the deliberate administration of a lethal overdose of pain medication. Those who claim the latter is mercy killing fail to recognize that true "compassion" leads to sharing another's pain; it does not kill the person whose suffering we cannot bear"

 

Pope Saint John Paul II

Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life),

1995

 

 

Regarding the Brandt quotes - what has happened to us, as a society, in the relatively short time since my grandfathers generation? (he fought men like Brandt - yet now the grandchildren of Brandt sit in Holyrood)

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they don't get to decide, but wouldn't it be nice to know that after your loving wife has helped you out of this terminal bind, she'll not go to jail?

 

 

I have every confidence that my wife is smarter than the cops, and would murder... sorry, would euthanise me in a way that would place her under no suspicion whatsoever.

 

I actually have every confidence that a mildly retarded monkey is smarter than the cops, come to think about it.

 

Anyway, the point is that I sleep with one eye open.

 

As for the legality of it, you're correct, if I've left instructions that, in the event of me entering a vegetative state, I want my body to be filled with delicious candy and used as a pinata then that should be my right.

 

Or this, even...

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"The dying should be kept as free of pain as possible. Some wish to blur the distinction between the use of medication to manage pain even at the risk of hastening the dying process, and the deliberate administration of a lethal overdose of pain medication. Those who claim the latter is mercy killing fail to recognize that true "compassion" leads to sharing another's pain; it does not kill the person whose suffering we cannot bear"

 

Pope Saint John Paul II

Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life),

1995

 

 

 

 

 

That's possibly one of the most nonsensical things I've ever read, and keep in mind Bluto posts here...

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You're an interesting character CS. I always find you make the effort to back up your arguments with decent research but I'm curious, for a practicing Catholic (assuming you are yeah?) you talk a lot about alcohol/drugs and other things which surely contradict the lifestyle expected of someone with a faith?

 

(Lets not go off topic too much, we should start another thread, but.....)

 

Ach you're right - I get carried away with try to fit in amongst the various lousy jakeys / down-and-outs etc who make up this forum membership ;)

 

A lot of my "war stories" relate to my adolescence / 20s where I was not religious, but I still refer to these incidents as I think they are "good value" or comic incidents. I value that stage of my life as much as any other, as its part of what makes me "me". I love funny stories, from anyone.

 

Regarding the use of alcohol or other drugs - Catholicism advocates a balance between the necessary respect* for our physical bodies, which can be harmed through drug use, and the fact than humanity enjoys the responsible/moderate use of 'drugs', which is not unreasonable.

 

(*'necessary respect' because our physical bodies are beautiful, magnificent, amazing things which we have been given to us from God -we don't actually own them)

 

"hard drugs" (Heroin, cocaine etc) are an obvious evil, in that they are addictive and harmful - and not natural as they are processed / adulterated substances.

 

Alcohol is also processed, but more moderate in that with responsible use it is not typically harmful or addictive.

 

Cannabis - a wholly natural substance (just dry unfertilised female flower buds and then blaze it, thats all) is extremely benign, non-toxic nor addictive, and its absurd its illegal and alcohol is not. (though, like any substance - even chocolate - it can be abused)

 

I dont really like what we call "drugs", (alcohol, caffeine and nicotine etc are drugs too, but they seem to be classed differently).

 

About cannabis, a natural and benign substance. The bible says:

 

" And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you"

 

Genesis 9:3

Douay Rheims

 

And as regards alcohol, it says:

 

AND the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. 2And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage.3And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. 5His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. 6Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece. 7Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 8And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now, and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it. 9And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine, and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water; the chief steward calleth the bridegroom, 10And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now. 11This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

 

John 2:1-11

Douay Rheims

 

So in my prodigious use of alcohol ("wine") and cannabis ("green herbs") I am only being a good Christian ;)

 

(There is an excellent French Red, Chateauneuf-du-Pape, which carries the name and symbol of the Papacy)

 

That my "green herbs" are against the secular law scarcely bothers me - for example, the secular law once said sodomy was wrong, now it says its the best thing since sliced bread. So who puts any worthwhile stock in the secular law?

 

Where alcohol becomes a problem for the Christian is where either it becomes to dominate us - for we are supposed to rule our passions, not let them rule us - or when we over-indulge and lose our human dignity.

 

When very drunk, ive been sick, fallen over, pissed on the floor, you name it. This kind of thing is a loss of human dignity, which is sinful, and it gives bad example to others, which is also sinful.

 

So basically, its alright to enjoy a drink as long as you dont fall to alcoholism, or lose dignity / give bad example. If you do the latter, theres always the confessional.

 

(Unfortunately, the times we lose our dignity always seem to make for the best stories haha).

 

Take it easy!

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That's possibly one of the most nonsensical things I've ever read, and keep in mind Bluto posts here...

 

You dont say why you feel like that, but I had a laugh at the Bluto bit anyway haha! :laughing:

 

What about the Brandt quotes? isnt JP2s nonsense preferable to them?

 

The word "compassion", which has a latin root (compati - suffer with), literally means to "suffer together" - so I would argue that JP2s quote isnt nonsense.

 

To be compassionate is to "suffer together".

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You dont say why you feel like that, but I had a laugh at the Bluto bit anyway haha! :laughing:

 

What about the Brandt quotes? isnt JP2s nonsense preferable to them?

 

The word "compassion", which has a latin root (compati - suffer with), literally means to "suffer together" - so I would argue that JP2s quote isnt nonsense.

 

To be compassionate is to "suffer together".

 

 

Brandt's words are something of an irrelevance, since the NAZIs represent perhaps the most stunning example of mental instability attaining executive power since Caligula was handed the keys to the Roman Empire. To say, "Hey, at least my words aren't as batshit loony as something the NAZs said." isn't much a benchmark against which to measure yourself. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin... these are all folks that if we find ourselves using as a yardstick of our own sanity or rationality.... you get the picture.

 

As far as the etymology of 'compassion', you're attempting to be somewhat literal in your definition. It may be that the denotation of the word means 'suffer together' but that doesn't mean we literally have to suffer together in order to be compassionate. As an example of non-literal meaning of words the Cantonese word for gardener is literally "Flower King"... but it's understood that gardeners aren't literally King of the Flowers. You'll also find that a hippopotamus isn't really a horse, regardless of what the Greeks might try to tell you.

 

If we want to understand the meaning of a word that we don't already know the meaning of we go look in a dictionary, we don't assume the literal translation is the actual meaning. Otherwise you might think a shoehorn is something that makes a honking noise and attaches to your slippers.

 

If you look up 'Compassion' in one of those dictionaries it will tell you the actual meaning of the word

 

 

com·pas·sion

kəmˈpaSHən/

noun
  1. sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

 

I think you'll find 'prolonging the suffering of another' under perhaps 'Sadism' , 'Torture', or 'Inhumane'.

 

To be compassionate is NOT to suffer together. Forcing someone to stay alive when their every breath is an agony is hardly compassion, and you're not "sharing their suffering", not in the slightest.

 

I also have an issue with this...

 

it does not kill the person whose suffering WE cannot bear"

 

This is an attempt to pervert the reasoning behind euthanasia from an ending of the suffering of the victim to a selfish need by others to terminate the victim for the benefit of those around him/her. An attempt to place some form of guilt on those who would help end another's suffering, though understood guilt is the Catholic Church's forte. To call his comment disingenuous is being gracious, but not being the gracious sort I'd call it heinous and repulsive. If his comment doesn't leave you feeling nauseous then you've a higher level of tolerance for demagoguery than I. Though, again, you've sat in a Catholic Church and I have not, so I would expect you to be more tolerant of it, I guess.

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If we were all right then it wouldn't be much fun on here.

 

Clydeside, I've grown to enjoy your nonsense. I don't think I've ever agreed with a single post of yours but hey ho.

 

Doug Stanhopes assisted suicide bit on one of his dvds is brilliant.

 

The one where he helps his mother suicide then maxes her credit card?

 

I remember a few years ago him saying there was a bit he wanted to do but legally he had to wait... well, turns out that was the bit.

 

David Cross does a great bit about Assisted Suicide inna.

 

He recognises that it's mainly the Bible-thumpers who have a problem with Assisted Suicide.

 

http://youtu.be/zL4hVIWJylE

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Assisted suicide isn't euthanasia which seems to be being confused here with stories of coma folks being offed. That is NOT assisted suicide. Assisted suicide is the person terminally ill and of sound mind being allowed to stop their pain early and die on their own terms.

 

No one else making the decision. THEM making the decision... and only being allowed if all kinds of processes line up.

 

It's completely inhumane to deny a person the right to choose to not suffer meaninglessly to a horrible end.

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Assisted suicide isn't euthanasia which seems to be being confused here with stories of coma folks being offed. That is NOT assisted suicide. Assisted suicide is the person terminally ill and of sound mind being allowed to stop their pain early and die on their own terms.

 

No one else making the decision. THEM making the decision... and only being allowed if all kinds of processes line up.

 

It's completely inhumane to deny a person the right to choose to not suffer meaninglessly to a horrible end.

 

I'd argue that you can pre-empt a vegetative state by leaving instructions such as DNR for medical staff. If DNR bears legal weight, and it does, then a similar instruction for 'put a pillow over my face in the event I'm a cabbage' should bear similar legal weight.

 

You don't have to be conscious to okay a DNR, nor should you have to be conscious or able to sign a release form in order to be terminated.

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I'd argue that you can pre-empt a vegetative state by leaving instructions such as DNR for medical staff. If DNR bears legal weight, and it does, then a similar instruction for 'put a pillow over my face in the event I'm a cabbage' should bear similar legal weight.

 

You don't have to be conscious to okay a DNR, nor should you have to be conscious or able to sign a release form in order to be terminated.

 

I agree with both of you

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  • 6 months later...

 

 

Rob Marris Assisted Dying Bill
Share »
houseofcommons-257x300.png

The House of Commons has not voted on this issue for almost twenty years

Dignity in Dying advocates a change in the law on assisted dying. We believe that, subject to strict upfront safeguards, the law should allow terminally ill, mentally competent adults to request life-ending medication from a doctor. The dying patient would then have the choice to self-administer that medication at a time that was right for them.

A change in the law on assisted dying would not lead to more deaths, rather it would lead to less suffering for those dying people who want the choice to control how and when they die.

Rob Marris MP tabled a Private Member’s Bill in the House of Commons on assisted dying in June 2015 to ensure there is a safeguarded framework to give terminally ill individuals choice over their end of life care. You can read the text of the Bill on-line.

This Bill will essentially be the same as the Assisted Dying Bill introduced by Lord Falconer which made historic progress through the House of Lords last year, but ran out of time before the 2015 General Election.

What’s next?

The Wolverhampton South West MP came top in this year’s ballot for backbench legislation which means that a Second Reading debate for his Bill is due on the 11th September.

With an influx of new, enthusiastic MPs, we are optimistic that there is greater support in the Commons for assisted dying than ever before. With your help, over the next few months, we need to find out where all the MPs stand on this issue.

 

 

I see the House of Commons is due to debate assisted suicide on Friday.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/08/mps-brave-vote-right-to-die

 

 

The Falconer bill passed unanimously in the House of Lords, but failed to reach the Commons before the election. Rob Marris’s private members bill is virtually identical and arrives on Friday with a fair wind after the Lords added extra safeguards: one doctor “attending” and one independent must predict someone is likely to die within six months, is mentally competent, and all palliative care has been given. Doctors who conscientiously object can opt out. Finally, a high court judge must approve, and the patient must be able to take the fatal dose themselves.

These are tight conditions. Oregon has had such a law for 18 years and only 0.3% of the dying have used it: there have been no cases of abuse.
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I see the House of Commons is due to debate assisted suicide on Friday.

The Herald is reporting that some Scots guy - a "severely disabled Grandfather" - who was wanting assisted suicide guidance to be published for scotland has failed in his bid.

Amazing that people have the strength for court battles / media exposure etc, but claim to be unable to swallow a few pills or whatever.

 

Also, re the Guardian article which states that (in Orgeon) Doctors can opt out - such grants are meaningless, as the NHS simply set about trying to curtail them through the courts.

 

For example look at the two scottish midwives who wanted nothing to do with abortion, but the NHS has dragged them through various courts to force them to supervise abortions, if not actively conduct them.

It was totally unnecessary, but the NHS doesnt like its staff opting out. - it doesnt respect conscience.

Also, at the end of WW2, we hanged people for supervising death camps, so I dont see how a supervisory role can be held up as being something distinct / uninvolved / more respectable.

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The Herald is reporting that some Scots guy - a "severely disabled Grandfather" - who was wanting assisted suicide guidance to be published for scotland has failed in his bid.

Amazing that people have the strength for court battles / media exposure etc, but claim to be unable to swallow a few pills or whatever.

 

If he's disabled he might not be able to put the pills in his mouth and he cant get them himself either. Changes it from suicide to murder.

 

 

 

For example look at the two scottish midwives who wanted nothing to do with abortion, but the NHS has dragged them through various courts to force them to supervise abortions, if not actively conduct them.

It was totally unnecessary, but the NHS doesnt like its staff opting out. - it doesnt respect conscience.

Also, at the end of WW2, we hanged people for supervising death camps, so I dont see how a supervisory role can be held up as being something distinct / uninvolved / more respectable.

 

 

You love a Nazi story dont you?

Godwin....

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The Herald is reporting that some Scots guy - a "severely disabled Grandfather" - who was wanting assisted suicide guidance to be published for scotland has failed in his bid.

Amazing that people have the strength for court battles / media exposure etc, but claim to be unable to swallow a few pills or whatever.

 

Also, re the Guardian article which states that (in Orgeon) Doctors can opt out - such grants are meaningless, as the NHS simply set about trying to curtail them through the courts.

 

For example look at the two scottish midwives who wanted nothing to do with abortion, but the NHS has dragged them through various courts to force them to supervise abortions, if not actively conduct them.

It was totally unnecessary, but the NHS doesnt like its staff opting out. - it doesnt respect conscience.

Also, at the end of WW2, we hanged people for supervising death camps, so I dont see how a supervisory role can be held up as being something distinct / uninvolved / more respectable.

 

The main difference being that the people in the Death Camps hadn't voluntarily turned up at Auschwitz or Belsen, knocked on the gates, and went, "Any chance you lads could gas me to death, stick my corpse in an oven, then dump the remains in a mass grave?"

 

And once again, a zygote or fetus is not a child.

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If he's disabled he might not be able to put the pills in his mouth and he cant get them himself either. Changes it from suicide to murder.

Mebbe this, mebbe that. Kenny Dalgleish.

 

Anyway from the picture in the herald, it was his legs that were goosed, not his hands.

 

You love a Nazi story dont you?

Godwin....

(Yes, especially about the Eastern Front)

 

But this pure evasion - Example is directly relevant on at least two counts!

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The main difference being that the people in the Death Camps hadn't voluntarily turned up at Auschwitz or Belsen, knocked on the gates, and went, "Any chance you lads could gas me to death, stick my corpse in an oven, then dump the remains in a mass grave?"

The examples relate to the role of the death-supervisor, not their victims.

 

And once again, a zygote or fetus is not a child.

Its a human being, undeniably.

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The examples relate to the role of the death-supervisor, not their victims.

 

 

Its a human being, undeniably.

 

It's genetically a mass of human cells, formless, and with no human consciousness. It's in no way 'A human being' since it has no 'being'.

 

Cogito ergo sum, it is undeniably not a human being.

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  • 2 years later...

 

Australia’s oldest scientist, who caused a stir when his university tried to vacate his office aged 102, will fly to Switzerland in early May to end his life, reigniting a national euthanasia debate.

David Goodall, who is now 104, does not have a terminal illness but his quality of life has deteriorated and he has secured a fast-track appointment with an assisted dying agency in Basel, euthanasia advocates said.
“I greatly regret having reached that age,” the ecologist told broadcaster ABC on his birthday earlier this month. “I’m not happy. I want to die. It’s not sad particularly. What is sad is if one is prevented.
“My feeling is that an old person like myself should have full citizenship rights including the right of assisted suicide,” he added.
Assisted suicide is illegal in most countries around the world and was banned in Australia until the state of Victoria became the first to legalise the practice last year.
But that legislation, which takes effect from June 2019, only applies to terminally ill patients of sound mind and a life expectancy of less than six months.
Other states in Australia have debated euthanasia in the past, but the proposals have always been defeated, mostly recently in New South Wales state last year. It was legalised in the Northern Territory, which is not a state, in 1995, but the commonwealth government overturned that legislation in 1997.
Exit International, which is helping Goodall make the trip, said it was unjust that one of Australia’s “oldest and most prominent citizens should be forced to travel to the other side of the world to die with dignity”.
“A peaceful, dignified death is the entitlement of all who want it. And a person should not be forced to leave home to achieve it,” it said on its website Monday.
The group has launched a GoFundMe campaign to get plane tickets for Goodall and his helper upgraded to business class from economy and has so far raised more than A$17,000 ($13,000).
Goodall, an honorary research associate at Perth’s Edith Cowan University, made international headlines in 2016 when he was declared unfit to be on campus.
After an uproar and support from scientists globally, the decision was reversed.
He has produced dozens of research papers and until recently continued to review and edit for different ecology journals.
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Australia’s oldest scientist, who caused a stir when his university tried to vacate his office aged 102, will fly to Switzerland in early May to end his life, reigniting a national euthanasia debate.

David Goodall, who is now 104, does not have a terminal illness but his quality of life has deteriorated and he has secured a fast-track appointment with an assisted dying agency in Basel, euthanasia advocates said.
“I greatly regret having reached that age,” the ecologist told broadcaster ABC on his birthday earlier this month. “I’m not happy. I want to die. It’s not sad particularly. What is sad is if one is prevented.
“My feeling is that an old person like myself should have full citizenship rights including the right of assisted suicide,” he added.
Assisted suicide is illegal in most countries around the world and was banned in Australia until the state of Victoria became the first to legalise the practice last year.
But that legislation, which takes effect from June 2019, only applies to terminally ill patients of sound mind and a life expectancy of less than six months.
Other states in Australia have debated euthanasia in the past, but the proposals have always been defeated, mostly recently in New South Wales state last year. It was legalised in the Northern Territory, which is not a state, in 1995, but the commonwealth government overturned that legislation in 1997.
Exit International, which is helping Goodall make the trip, said it was unjust that one of Australia’s “oldest and most prominent citizens should be forced to travel to the other side of the world to die with dignity”.
“A peaceful, dignified death is the entitlement of all who want it. And a person should not be forced to leave home to achieve it,” it said on its website Monday.
The group has launched a GoFundMe campaign to get plane tickets for Goodall and his helper upgraded to business class from economy and has so far raised more than A$17,000 ($13,000).
Goodall, an honorary research associate at Perth’s Edith Cowan University, made international headlines in 2016 when he was declared unfit to be on campus.
After an uproar and support from scientists globally, the decision was reversed.
He has produced dozens of research papers and until recently continued to review and edit for different ecology journals.

 

Is he committing suicide? And if he is should it be anybody else's business?

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