Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

There are currently 9 countries in the EU that don't use the Euro.

 

It takes literally seconds to find this out.

 

And with the exception of Denmark, they are all obliged to join the Euro once they meet the criteria for doing so.

 

Denmark is a special case because, like the UK, it agreed an opt-out at the time of the maastrict treaty ~1992.

 

All future EU members, including an independent scotland, would be obliged to join the Euro.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Aye but they won't let us back in remember.

They would accept scotland joining through the usual channels.

 

Are all the countries lined up to enter/possibly enter the EU joining the currency union?

 

No, of course they aren't.

Yes they are FFS.

 

Except the unique case of Denmark (which, like the UK, has a ~30 yr old opt out), all EU members are obliged to join the euro once they meet convergence criteria.

[Frank Grimes]

I'd happily use the Euro tbh, wouldn't have an issue with it at all

[craegDAMH]

 

And with the exception of Denmark, they are all obliged to join the Euro once they meet the criteria for doing so.

 

Denmark is a special case because, like the UK, it agreed an opt-out at the time of the maastrict treaty ~1992.

 

Correct!

 

And if they don't want to join the Euro, they ensure that they don't meet the convergence criteria. Sweden has been an EU member since 1995, and has ensured it does not meet the criteria, deliberately.

 

If an independent Scotland wanted to retain it's currency, it could.

 

 

All future EU members, including an independent scotland, would be obliged to join the Euro.

 

Incorrect! Not if they deliberately avoid meeting the criteria.

[Parklife]

 

Correct!

 

And if they don't want to join the Euro, they ensure that they don't meet the convergence criteria. Sweden has been an EU member since 1995, and has ensured it does not meet the criteria, deliberately.

 

If an independent Scotland wanted to retain it's currency, it could.

 

 

 

Incorrect! Not if they deliberately avoid meeting the criteria.

Correct. As usual CS speaks with a sense of authority way beyond his scope of knowledge and makes a cunt of himself.

[Redforever86]

Aye CS is your typical weegie watched Gladiator once and think he knows the entire history of Rome.

[shut up meg]

Aye CS is your typical weegie watched Gladiator once and think he knows the entire history of Rome.

 

Probably thinks they fought with big cotton buds as well.

[mcdougall(4)]

...but what have the Romans ever done for us?

[beer gut]

The problem as i see it is all her arguments vehemently making the case for the UK to stay in the EU can be turned around on her when it comes to Scotland leaving the UK. Shes made a rod for her own back.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

Incorrect! Not if they deliberately avoid meeting the criteria.

 

FFS.

 

I was going to ask what kind of idiot would want to join the euro project and then deliberately fail to live up to it, but then we are dealing with Scottish Nationalists here.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

The problem as i see it is all her arguments vehemently making the case for the UK to stay in the EU can be turned around on her when it comes to Scotland leaving the UK. Shes made a rod for her own back.

 

Exactly right.

 

Its amazing to me that, since the referendum, they have done literally nothing to address the weaknesses in their pitch and to bring no voters "on board". All they have done is grandstand about a second referendum.

 

Personally I think Scotland will ultimately do well in a post-brexit UK.

[craegDAMH]

 

FFS.

 

I was going to ask what kind of idiot would want to join the euro project and then deliberately fail to live up to it, but then we are dealing with Scottish Nationalists here.

 

No, we're also dealing with the Swedes, Czechs, Hungarians, Danish and the Polish.... all EU members with no intention of joining the Eurozone. Why not just accept you were wrong instead of getting defensive and having a go at "Scottish Nationalists"?

 

Joining the Eurozone is not a pre-requisite for EU membership. I would have thought living in a country that is in one and not the other would have made this blindingly obvious. There's plenty of reasons a country might want to benefit from EU membership but not also be part of the Eurozone.

[Donnet]

The problem as i see it is all her arguments vehemently making the case for the UK to stay in the EU can be turned around on her when it comes to Scotland leaving the UK. Shes made a rod for her own back.

 

Same can be said for the Unionists who campaigned (or now defend) leaving the EU.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

No, we're also dealing with the Swedes, Czechs, Hungarians, Danish and the Polish.... all EU members with no intention of joining the Eurozone. Why not just accept you were wrong instead of getting defensive and having a go at "Scottish Nationalists"?

Because I wasnt wrong. Denmark has an opt out, but the others are obliged to join and will ultimately join.

 

You pretending the other countries are playing some kind of double bluff is desperate tactics to avoid admitting you are wrong.

 

The european commission monitors countries progress towards compliance and issues regular reports about this.

 

Joining the Eurozone is not a pre-requisite for EU membership. I would have thought living in a country that is in one and not the other would have made this blindingly obvious. There's plenty of reasons a country might want to benefit from EU membership but not also be part of the Eurozone.

The UK had an opt out too, from the same era as Denmark.

 

Nowadays no-one gets an opt out and must agree to join the euro eventually.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Same can be said for the Unionists who campaigned (or now defend) leaving the EU.

A good point, that is also true to an extent. It cuts both ways.

 

But the UK has several other factors - common language, culture, history - which support the logic of maintaining union.

[craegDAMH]

Because I wasnt wrong. Denmark has an opt out, but the others are obliged to join and will ultimately join.

 

Only if they meet the criteria. Criteria which they are in full control of. So to say that it is an inevitability is false.

 

Sweden for example has written it into their own law that they cannot meet these criteria, and then join the Eurozone, without a referendum.

 

 

You pretending the other countries are playing some kind of double bluff is desperate tactics to avoid admitting you are wrong.

 

I'm not pretending anything of the sort. Again you resort to having a go at me or changing my argument. It's public record that countries like Sweden, Hungary and Poland have no intention of meeting the criteria.

[Redforever86]

CS you are a complete fantasist any chance you could stop spreading your misinformation and fuck off and die?

[beer gut]

 

Same can be said for the Unionists who campaigned (or now defend) leaving the EU.

They aren't calling for a 2nd indy ref, Sturgeon is.

 

Personally i think the SNP are out of touch judging by some of todays news : SNP: Tax breaks needed to tempt skilled migrants to Scotland

 

So she plans to keep increasing taxes for Scots but give tax breaks to 'skilled migrants' and continue to give free university education to EU students . I'm seriously losing patience with these bunch of fools.

[mcdougall(4)]

CS you are a complete fantasist any chance you could stop spreading your misinformation and fuck off and die?

If this is to be a misinformation free zone

 

What you spending your £4100 on...

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Only if they meet the criteria. Criteria which they are in full control of. So to say that it is an inevitability is false.

 

Sweden for example has written it into their own law that they cannot meet these criteria, and then join the Eurozone, without a referendum.

 

I'm not pretending anything of the sort. Again you resort to having a go at me or changing my argument. It's public record that countries like Sweden, Hungary and Poland have no intention of meeting the criteria.

 

Well I apologise if you think I as having a go at a you, I wasn't, but it is very frustrating when you will not accept facts such as all the countries (except denmark) have committed to / are obliged to ultimately join the euro, and also make evidence-free claims to the contrary.

 

The 2018 convergence report has just been released 2 days ago.

 

It rates the convergence for the nations (based on 4 criteria) as follows:

 

Bulgaria - meets 3 out of 4

Czech Republic - meets 2 out of 4

Croatia - meets 3 out of 4

Hungary - meets 2 out of 4

Poland - meets 2 out of 4

Romania - meets 1 out of 4

Sweden - meets 3 out of 4

 

Perhaps with the exception of Romania, they all seem to be making reasonable progress towards compliance at their own paces.

 

The report also re-states that:

 

Member States that do not have an opt-out clause (i.e. United Kingdom and Denmark) have committed to adopt the euro once they fulfil the necessary conditions.

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-18-3827_et.htm

 

Yes they can all go at their own pace, because their starting economies are different, but they have committed to join.

 

You have provided no evidence for your claim that Sweden, Poland and Hungary "have no intention" of meeting the criteria.

 

I do not believe their governments have made any such statement and think that you are extrapolating this from the fact they are proceeding at their own paces.

 

Its true that in eg Poland enthusiasm for the Euro has cooled, given they have had time to see what a debacle the currency has been, but that doesn't change the fact that they have committed to join.

 

Sweden was going to join in 2006, but a referendum voted against it. They now say that they will join once a referendum approves it. I was not aware of this aspect of their situation, but nevertheless their law still makes them subject to maastricht treaty which ultimately obliges them to join. Most parties in Sweden, including the current government are in favour of the Euro.

 

None of this represents these nations "having no intention" of joining, but simply the fact they are going at their own pace which is permitted.

 

If it was true that th EU was based on committments which are not intended to be honoured, then it means all this is just a meaningless game, with the EU spending money on employing people to produce meaningless reports analysing members pretend efforts of honouring what they have agreed to.

 

If that were true, is it something we want to be a part of?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

CS you are a complete fantasist any chance you could stop spreading your misinformation and fuck off and die?

 

Why do you take part in these adult discussions, given you always shit your pants and take a flakey?

 

Again you demonstrate how your world is turned upside down via encountering opinions from outwith the village.

[craegDAMH]

 

Well I apologise if you think I as having a go at a you, I wasn't, but it is very frustrating when you will not accept facts such as all the countries (except denmark) have committed to / are obliged to ultimately join the euro, and also make evidence-free claims to the contrary.

 

I have accepted that, multiple times. But you seem to be ignoring that this only happens once members meet criteria that members have total control over.

 

 

 

You have provided no evidence for your claim that Sweden, Poland and Hungary "have no intention" of meeting the criteria.

 

I do not believe their governments have made any such statement and think that you are extrapolating this from the fact they are proceeding at their own paces.

 

Its true that in eg Poland enthusiasm for the Euro has cooled, given they have had time to see what a debacle the currency has been, but that doesn't change the fact that they have committed to join.

 

Sweden was going to join in 2006, but a referendum voted against it. They now say that they will join once a referendum approves it. I was not aware of this aspect of their situation, but nevertheless their law still makes them subject to maastricht treaty which ultimately obliges them to join. Most parties in Sweden, including the current government are in favour of the Euro.

 

None of this represents these nations "having no intention" of joining, but simply the fact they are going at their own pace which is permitted.

 

I probably worded that poorly. I was saying that these countries have not expressed an intention to join, not that they have said they won't join. Compared to countries like Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania who have all set a target date for joining.

 

Bulgaria for example are desperate to join but other Eurozone members are not so keen. https://www.reuters.com/article/bulgaria-eurozone/update-2-defiant-bulgaria-to-push-for-erm-2-membership-idUSL8N1P625A

 

Sweden is the relevant test case for an independent Scotland. It is the most comparable and their decision to join is predicated on a referendum. It's been over 20 years, they have been fully compliant with every criteria other than joining the ERM-II for years. But they have the autonomy to not make the application. It's nothing to do with going at their own pace, they don't want to join until there is a public mandate. The EU know this, it's been 23 years.

 

 

If it was true that th EU was based on committments which are not intended to be honoured, then it means all this is just a meaningless game, with the EU spending money on employing people to produce meaningless reports analysing members pretend efforts of honouring what they have agreed to.

 

If that were true, is it something we want to be a part of?

 

That's not what anyone has argued.

 

I don't think it's a meaningless report, there are 19 Eurozone countries who would be impacted if these countries meet the criteria and try to join the Eurozone. Keeping an eye on their progress seems entirely sensible to me.

[DD1903]

They aren't calling for a 2nd indy ref, Sturgeon is.

 

Personally i think the SNP are out of touch judging by some of todays news : SNP: Tax breaks needed to tempt skilled migrants to Scotland

 

So she plans to keep increasing taxes for Scots but give tax breaks to 'skilled migrants' and continue to give free university education to EU students . I'm seriously losing patience with these bunch of fools.

The snp are, for many no voters I know, the very reason why they voted no! They don't trust them to run the country.

[Donnet]

The snp are, for many no voters I know, the very reason why they voted no! They don't trust them to run the country.

 

They don't need to. There would be a general election to decide who runs an independent Scotland. I'd wager the SNP's share of the vote would plummet after independence.

[Parklife]

The snp are, for many no voters I know, the very reason why they voted no! They don't trust them to run the country.

Stupid people who don't understand how elections work?

[DD1903]

So youd have more trust in the Tories then?

Read what I said again.

 

I didn't say that.

 

( I voted for independence)

[dj_bollocks]

As someone living in England who's witnessed the horror of the English NHS in comparison to how it operates in Scotland, I'd say some people in Scotland don't realise how good they have it under the SNP. They're not perfect, but they genuinely offer an alternative to the Red/Blue option here in Guffyland. The sad thing being as a country the UK will never be rid of the Tories until the Labour party embrace the SNP in Scotland.

[DD1903]

 

They don't need to. There would be a general election to decide who runs an independent Scotland. I'd wager the SNP's share of the vote would plummet after independence.

I agree. But sadly many don't see it that way.

 

The snp should concentrate on running the country well, showing what they can do, for a few years. That may win some over for the 'yes' side

[DD1903]

Stupid people who don't understand how elections work?

Or bookies

[Redforever86]

I agree. But sadly many don't see it that way.

 

The snp should concentrate on running the country well, showing what they can do, for a few years. That may win some over for the 'yes' side

When everything is running smoothly which has been the case in the majority of the SNPs tenure, the unionists start bleating on about crap that Westminster actually controls or effects or the case of independence itself.