Scottish Elections

[The Buzzard]

14 minutes ago, RAZOR said:

An MSP can equally resign/get punted from their respective party and still coast through 5 years as an independent candidate.

Not right. Should mean a by-election.

Yep, has happened quite a lot over the 5 sessions of Parliament. Mark McDonald being a good example for you guys up in Aberdeen. 

[RAZOR]

A

[Zeus]

Glad my red vote got King Anas a rightful seat 

[RAZOR]

20 minutes ago, The Buzzard said:

They are still a party but they just don't have enough of a percentage of MSPs to be able to sit on the Parliamentary Bureau and have a say in how parliamentary business is scheduled. You need at least 5 MSPs. 

The business managers from each party meet on a weekly basis alongside the PO and officials to set out what the business shall take place in the month ahead. 

Parties are allocated a percentage of parliamentary time according to how many seats they have to decide on a debate they'd like to lead on. The Lib-Dems will get very little opportunities to lead one of those debates but the bureau will carve out a slot every so often to give them some time. 

When a party is allocated that time then it's their choice as to what topic(s) they decide they want to debate. Sometimes they'll use that time to have two short debates if it's unlikely they'll get another opportunity for a while. 

Good information. Cheers min.

[Ten Caat]

9 hours ago, tightbreeks said:

I'm sure when donald dewar won devolution it was set up in such a way there would never be a clear majority for one party. A baw hair away from being that.

That was the theory for certain. The idea being the Parliament would be a mix of the best talents from across party lines, all working towards common goals and achieving results by consensus. The formula used to appoint top up members was so heavily weighted against parties winning large numbers of constituency seats that although not impossible to achieve a majority, it was believed to be highly unlikely.

Of course it was set up under the Blair administration who arrogantly presumed it would forever be led by minority Labour governments (but only falling a few MSP's short of an overall majority), roping in the Lib Dems or SNP for support as and when to pass any legislation that the Scots Tories did not like. And the masters in London wouldn't allow the winning Labour administrations of it's first 2 terms to even call themselves the Scottish Government........embarrassingly they were told chose to call themselves "The Scottish Executive".

Only the SNP have ever won an outright majority in 2011. They seemed to hit a "sweet spot" of managing not to win too many constituency seats (53 iirc) that was just enough to allow them to pick up list seats in all constituencies on a lowish turnout at the polls coupled with a much lesser Tory vote than they achieve now (and no tactical voting as obviously happened in a few seats this time round).

What sickens me is that there are Labour politicians (and now being closely followed by Tories) who have been rejected in constituency seats and are using the list as a backdoor entrance into regaining a seat at Holyrood. Pauline McNeill springs to mind for Labour (been there since the very first Parliament except 2011 when she lost her constituency seat and wasn't on the list now doesn't fight constituency seats) and the aforementioned Annie Wells for the Tories. To my mind, constituency candidates should not be able to stand as list candidates also....one or the other should be the rule.

[The Buzzard]

3 minutes ago, shut up meg said:

Only the voters can decide, look at the bloke from Aberdeen, he resigned from the SNP due to allegations of perving but still sat as an independent.

In regards the Alba MPs, I'm confident that if there was a byelection tomorrow, MacAskill would be out of a job and probably split the vote and allow Labour back in.

You're probably right re MacAskill but such is the way it is he doesn't need to face a by-election and find that out. He can sit comfortably for a while yet!

[RAZOR]

21 minutes ago, Ten Caat said:

That was the theory for certain. The idea being the Parliament would be a mix of the best talents from across party lines, all working towards common goals and achieving results by consensus. The formula used to appoint top up members was so heavily weighted against parties winning large numbers of constituency seats that although not impossible to achieve a majority, it was believed to be highly unlikely.

Of course it was set up under the Blair administration who arrogantly presumed it would forever be led by minority Labour governments (but only falling a few MSP's short of an overall majority), roping in the Lib Dems or SNP for support as and when to pass any legislation that the Scots Tories did not like. And the masters in London wouldn't allow the winning Labour administrations of it's first 2 terms to even call themselves the Scottish Government........embarrassingly they were told chose to call themselves "The Scottish Executive".

Only the SNP have ever won an outright majority in 2011. They seemed to hit a "sweet spot" of managing not to win too many constituency seats (53 iirc) that was just enough to allow them to pick up list seats in all constituencies on a lowish turnout at the polls coupled with a much lesser Tory vote than they achieve now (and no tactical voting as obviously happened in a few seats this time round).

What sickens me is that there are Labour politicians (and now being closely followed by Tories) who have been rejected in constituency seats and are using the list as a backdoor entrance into regaining a seat at Holyrood. Pauline McNeill springs to mind for Labour (been there since the very first Parliament except 2011 when she lost her constituency seat and wasn't on the list now doesn't fight constituency seats) and the aforementioned Annie Wells for the Tories. To my mind, constituency candidates should not be able to stand as list candidates also....one or the other should be the rule.

Murdo Fraser another one. Coasts in every election. Ridiculous really.

[shut up meg]

7 minutes ago, The Buzzard said:

You're probably right re MacAskill but such is the way it is he doesn't need to face a by-election and find that out. He can sit comfortably for a while yet!

There is a mechanism for the constituency to recall the MP's and force a byelection but only if they have been suspended for a couple of weeks, fiddled their expenses or sent to prison however they are in the process of changing the act to include folk who move parties.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2773

If passed, any MP who changes parties will be able to be recalled by the electorate. This would only happen if a petition was raised with at least 10% of the voters roll.

 

[shut up meg]

17 minutes ago, RAZOR said:

Murdo Fraser another one. Coasts in every election. Ridiculous really.

He's never won an election in his life, Westminster, Holyrood, leader of the Conservatives, lost the lot.

He's only ever been elected through the list vote.

[davieb]

23 minutes ago, shut up meg said:

He's never won an election in his life, Westminster, Holyrood, leader of the Conservatives, lost the lot.

He's only ever been elected through the list vote.

Yep, creaming in his tax-payer funded 60k plus salary and generous pension for best part of 20 years without once winning an election. A perfect example of a need for term-limits on these jokers!

[sheepcrooky]

Fully agree with time limiting list terms to two, anymore terms and they should have to go onto a constituency ballot. 
 

BTW, I used to canvass with Murdo Fraser late ‘80’s early ‘90’s. He had not changed at all. 

[caledonia]

Michael Gove on Marr was very interesting re the constitution and UK gov wont now challenge in court.

unionists must be raging by his reply’s 

See he is now on The Sunday Show maybe damage limitation.

[Parklife]

1 hour ago, The Buzzard said:

They are still a party but they just don't have enough of a percentage of MSPs to be able to sit on the Parliamentary Bureau and have a say in how parliamentary business is scheduled. You need at least 5 MSPs. 

The business managers from each party meet on a weekly basis alongside the PO and officials to set out what the business shall take place in the month ahead. 

Parties are allocated a percentage of parliamentary time according to how many seats they have to decide on a debate they'd like to lead on. The Lib-Dems will get very little opportunities to lead one of those debates but the bureau will carve out a slot every so often to give them some time. 

When a party is allocated that time then it's their choice as to what topic(s) they decide they want to debate. Sometimes they'll use that time to have two short debates if it's unlikely they'll get another opportunity for a while. 

Does this mean that Willie Rennie won't get a weekly question ("when will the snp stop talking about independence?" after no one has even mentioned it) at FMQ's now? 

[Lencarl]

38 minutes ago, caledonia said:

Michael Gove on Marr was very interesting re the constitution and UK gov wont now challenge in court.

unionists must be raging by his reply’s 

See he is now on The Sunday Show maybe damage limitation.

At long last the Tory Boys realise that they can not stop the will of the Scottish people.

This rubbish about telling Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford that the UK is "best served when we work together" is laughable.

 

[The Buzzard]

1 hour ago, Parklife said:

Does this mean that Willie Rennie won't get a weekly question ("when will the snp stop talking about independence?" after no one has even mentioned it) at FMQ's now? 

I think he'll not be guaranteed one under the rules if I remember correctly. In practice though I think he might still end up getting to ask some kind of supplementary question regularly. 

 

[caledonia]

3 hours ago, Lencarl said:

1,094,734 regional votes for the SNP resulted in only 2 regional seats.

637,131 regional votes for Conservative resulted in 26 regional seats.

485,819 regional votes for Labour resulted in 20 regional seats.

 

Mother Of God.

 

This happened because the blinkered only saw two votes SNP

pity no one warned you about this eh

[caledonia]

Scotland the only country in the world where you’re denied a majority because too much people voted for you.

[Jocky Balboa]

3 hours ago, The Buzzard said:

Do you agree that MPs/MSPs can change parties and not have to face a by-election? I don't like that. I think the voters should get that choice as to whether or not Kenny MacAskill, for example, can sit in Westminster now and represent Alba. 

I'm not even sure what I think of the method up here where a list MSP might stand down/resign will then automatically be replaced by the next person that was on the list from their party.

I'm not saying for one minute that this system is ideal, nor that I even like it. What I am saying however, is that we have to play the cards which are dealt. The smart play this time around, for those who prioritise independence, was to give their second vote to another pro-independence party, but once again the wider electorate have repeated the same mistake of 2016. 

3 hours ago, RAZOR said:

Murdo Fraser another one. Coasts in every election. Ridiculous really.

A true careerist trougher; failed every election he's ever stood in and, to add insult to injury, not even a particularly good MSP. All he does is make dog whistle Hun comments and say no.to independence. 

23 minutes ago, caledonia said:

This happened because the blinkered only saw two votes SNP

pity no one warned you about this eh

As the saying goes "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me..." They were warned but didn't listen and many didn't even take the time to familiarise themselves with the voting system. They can have no complaint about what the SNP and Greens are about to unleash over the next five years.

[shut up meg]

33 minutes ago, caledonia said:

Scotland the only country in the world where you’re denied a majority because too much people voted for you.

As an independence supporter, this is pish. 

Based on  the FPTP results.

SNP got 47-48% of the vote and got just under 50% of the seats.

Tories got 22% of the vote and got about the same % of seats.

Labour got 21% of the vote and got 17% of the seats.

 

I know that the list vote is not included but I don't think any SNP voter would be voting for the tories or to a lesser extent LD or labour.

If the majority of independence supporters voted SNP/Alba or Greens, they would just be gaming the system, not changing the fact that the independence question is 50/50 right now.

 

[Lencarl]

50 minutes ago, caledonia said:

This happened because the blinkered only saw two votes SNP

pity no one warned you about this eh

I voted both SNP because that is what the SNP wanted us members to do and I always follow advice from Nicola.

I had no wish to vote for the ALBA Party.

One Independent Party is all Scotland needs.

And that Party is SNP.

PS :

Lots of rumours swirling in West Aberdeenshire on three different areas of concern re. the vote. Any concrete evidence emerging will be collated & passed on to the @ElectoralCommUK & possibly @policescotland.

?

 

[KenDodd'sDad]

No point moaning about failed constituency candidates getting elected on the list, the SNP used to do it as well, including one N Sturgeon in 1999 and 2003. These things just go round in circles.

[Dons79]

1 hour ago, caledonia said:

This happened because the blinkered only saw two votes SNP

pity no one warned you about this eh

No it didn’t,I live the most unionist area in Scotland, Ayrshire, direct links to the drum beating Belfast at june, orange walks every summer, the first orange lodge meeting room in Kilwinning, unionists everywhere.check the last 12 years snp polling politically!, SNP, why, because we haven’t became tolerant to it, regardless of your feelings and upbringings you quickly realise that it’s job security,money that’s most important, then it’s what you believe!, which is where Aberdeen has failed itself on many occasions. Aberdeen’s very attitude towards the south,minks,guffs, and it’s air of superiority, coupled with the oil jobs of the 90s and 2000s.Aberdeen invited in the rich scumbags,the English and every other cunt that had a bit of wealth, over time these residents grew from streets of the cunts to now whole districts unabated and unchallenged on their views of scotland. only needed Aberdeen west for a majority but the folks up there don’t want the right to self govern and never have.polls indicate this, which was facilitated by the residents of Aberdeen to shore up the NE mentality of being better than the rest.bites you in the arse now!,scotland shame

look in before you look out blaming SNP voters and in which way to vote?

get your own house in order first!

 

ps it wouldn’t have made a bit of blind difference down here to vote SNP 1 and Alba 2 as we have the vote sewn up here!, all you need to do was to look at 4 years ago map and see how close constituancy votes where for your region.if you live in a region with all SNP then it doesn’t matter!, only matters on the swing shires and if you don’t live there then it’s moot!.if you lived in a particular part of a country that did vote say Tory or labour then yes SNP 1 and any other pro independence is justified.

government is set up to make a majority almost impossible and when we done it in 2011, it was more luck than design, hitting the sweet spot of seats to constituencies, the result was as good as it could have been and sends a clear and direct message to Westminster that we are not fucking about!.

[shut up meg]

9 out of 10 seats in the North East is not too bad a haul, add in the amount of incomers to the area.  I think the SNP support held up pretty well up here dons79.

[redstrummer]

8 minutes ago, shut up meg said:

9 out of 10 seats in the North East is not too bad a haul, add in the amount of incomers to the area.  I think the SNP support held up pretty well up here dons79.

good point min

[NEM]

2 hours ago, caledonia said:

Scotland the only country in the world where you’re denied a majority because too much people voted for you.

Did the majority vote for the SNP?  If not then what's the problem?  Seems a fairer way to do it than FPTP

[caledonia]

58 minutes ago, Dons79 said:

No it didn’t,I live the most unionist area in Scotland, Ayrshire, direct links to the drum beating Belfast at june, orange walks every summer, the first orange lodge meeting room in Kilwinning, unionists everywhere.check the last 12 years snp polling politically!, SNP, why, because we haven’t became tolerant to it, regardless of your feelings and upbringings you quickly realise that it’s job security,money that’s most important, then it’s what you believe!, which is where Aberdeen has failed itself on many occasions. Aberdeen’s very attitude towards the south,minks,guffs, and it’s air of superiority, coupled with the oil jobs of the 90s and 2000s.Aberdeen invited in the rich scumbags,the English and every other cunt that had a bit of wealth, over time these residents grew from streets of the cunts to now whole districts unabated and unchallenged on their views of scotland. only needed Aberdeen west for a majority but the folks up there don’t want the right to self govern and never have.polls indicate this, which was facilitated by the residents of Aberdeen to shore up the NE mentality of being better than the rest.bites you in the arse now!,scotland shame

look in before you look out blaming SNP voters and in which way to vote?

get your own house in order first!

 

ps it wouldn’t have made a bit of blind difference down here to vote SNP 1 and Alba 2 as we have the vote sewn up here!, all you need to do was to look at 4 years ago map and see how close constituancy votes where for your region.if you live in a region with all SNP then it doesn’t matter!, only matters on the swing shires and if you don’t live there then it’s moot!.if you lived in a particular part of a country that did vote say Tory or labour then yes SNP 1 and any other pro independence is justified.

government is set up to make a majority almost impossible and when we done it in 2011, it was more luck than design, hitting the sweet spot of seats to constituencies, the result was as good as it could have been and sends a clear and direct message to Westminster that we are not fucking about!.

Ayr is part of south Scotland list which gave 3 Tories and 3 Labour so voting for another independent minded party would have made a difference.

maybe you need to understand the voting system better

 

[Parklife]

16 minutes ago, NEM said:

Did the majority vote for the SNP?  If not then what's the problem?  Seems a fairer way to do it than FPTP

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with the system. I can't think of a better one in use anywhere. 

[caledonia]

31 minutes ago, NEM said:

Did the majority vote for the SNP?  If not then what's the problem?  Seems a fairer way to do it than FPTP

Majority does not matter as voting system was set up to stop majority’s and along with the Greens they have pro independence majority anyway.

Not a bad night for them none the less but my honest opinion is we will never get independence under Sturgeon anyway.

[Dons79]

39 minutes ago, caledonia said:

Ayr is part of south Scotland list which gave 3 Tories and 3 Labour so voting for another independent minded party would have made a difference.

maybe you need to understand the voting system better

 

Ayr not a part of my constituancy, nice try, that’s south Ayrshire not north.I don’t get to manipulate that region.I do know the voting system.any feedback on my many points I raised?.

I think you need to understand the voting system better!, and perhaps geography, ayr south, ardrossan north.

secondly the list vote was won by 160 votes?, so in the south they had to vote strong SNP just to win the seat leaving open the list vote to be hoovered up by the unionists!which there are plenty. That’s why the south Ayrshire lost so many constituencies seats.what’s Aberdeen west’s excuse?.

 

[Zeus]

It's middle class