Scott Brown So Far.

[aberdeen1970]

Hang on, what's all this stuff about Santa? 

[Byrne Baby Byrne]

19 minutes ago, Big Hat Logan said:

Here we go again, all it takes is belief to win the league ?

The entirety of Scottish football needs a complete overhaul and then huge investment in one of the non-OF clubs for someone else to win the league. You can believe in Santa, doesn’t mean he exists.

I think you are making a lot of good sensible points in this thread BHL but the gadgie above is correct. Leicester winning the league was absolutely outrageous. In the last 37 years there’s been teams here and there who break the trend across Europe in their leagues, so why has it not even come remotely close in Scotland since what 1991? 
 

match the weegies in those games and beat all the shite. It should really be achievable at least once a decade to put in a proper title challenge?

[Big Hat Logan]

9 minutes ago, Byrne Baby Byrne said:

I think you are making a lot of good sensible points in this thread BHL but the gadgie above is correct. Leicester winning the league was absolutely outrageous. In the last 37 years there’s been teams here and there who break the trend across Europe in their leagues, so why has it not even come remotely close in Scotland since what 1991? 
 

match the weegies in those games and beat all the shite. It should really be achievable at least once a decade to put in a proper title challenge?

Leicester hardly did it on a shoestring budget with a load of average players though, did they? The other “big” sides didn’t have great seasons, it all culminated in an incredibly rare set of circumstances that led to Leicester winning the league. 
 

While I get what you and the other guy are saying, it’s just not as simple as that. Not even mentioning our toxic fanbase that constantly abuse players for being shite every single week. I doubt it’s easy having belief in your abilities when all you get is some arseholes screaming that you’re shite for the whole game. Ramirez is our top scorer despite getting zero service from the rest of the team yet is getting slaughtered for “being shite”. His smile is gone, he looks miserable now. Lewis Ferguson, arguably our best player, reduced to gesticulating and arguing with fans because of the abuse.

 

[Byrne Baby Byrne]

1 hour ago, Big Hat Logan said:

Leicester hardly did it on a shoestring budget with a load of average players though, did they? The other “big” sides didn’t have great seasons, it all culminated in an incredibly rare set of circumstances that led to Leicester winning the league. 
 

While I get what you and the other guy are saying, it’s just not as simple as that. Not even mentioning our toxic fanbase that constantly abuse players for being shite every single week. I doubt it’s easy having belief in your abilities when all you get is some arseholes screaming that you’re shite for the whole game. Ramirez is our top scorer despite getting zero service from the rest of the team yet is getting slaughtered for “being shite”. His smile is gone, he looks miserable now. Lewis Ferguson, arguably our best player, reduced to gesticulating and arguing with fans because of the abuse.

 

Look at the sums of money Man U, Man City & Chelsea are spending. 100's of millions on single players. The likes of Kante, Vardy & Mahrez were relevant pennies. Mahrez cost the same as Stevie May!!!! Those rare circumstances did come together and it was at that point they were at their peak. Thats what frustrates me, when Celtic & Rangers aren't at their best we seem to be fucking dire as well. When all the big teams get knocked out the cup you can be rest assured we'll get knocked out by St Mirren and Dundee United. You would think at some point in the last 37 years they could have had a bad season and we could have had a great one... but its not even been close. I think with our resources it should be possible. As I say we just need to beat the shite and match the weegies. 

Absolutely agree with your second paragraph. When the Dons are doing well our fanbase is great but when things slip we are a horrible bunch. Any player who wants to better themselves is immediately despised if they suggest they might want to leave. I love Consi, but I'd rather have guys like Ferguson and McKenna in the team who want to do really well then transfer away for a few million. All parties come out of that well!

[Ten Caat]

1 hour ago, Byrne Baby Byrne said:

I think you are making a lot of good sensible points in this thread BHL but the gadgie above is correct. Leicester winning the league was absolutely outrageous. In the last 37 years there’s been teams here and there who break the trend across Europe in their leagues, so why has it not even come remotely close in Scotland since what 1991? 
 

match the weegies in those games and beat all the shite. It should really be achievable at least once a decade to put in a proper title challenge?

And yet for closing in rapidly on 40 it hasn't. For the first few of those either ourselves or Hearts or Dundee United did get reasonably close. By the early 90s Celtic were a basket case and we were certainly very close to matching a financially doped oldco but when we started living without our means, it all came home to roost fairly quickly and we had to cut costs dramatically resulting in years of being totally shite. Meanwhile Hearts do get a Russian oligarch onboard who spends a bit of cash......but still dwarfed by what a now stable Celtic and a close to going bust oldco were. I think they managed to split them once in the final league standings although they did pick up some Scottish Cups. Turns out Mad Vlad wasnt particularly wealthy though and administration followed rapidly . If one of the arse cheeks has a bad season or is carrying out a large squad rebuild, we might be able to achieve the same once a decade. But both of them aren't going to have shite seasons in the same year.

Like it or not, you have face reality. Everything in our system is geared up to providing the arse cheeks with every advantage possible. And every year they get Champions League cash (with one now guaranteed group stage direct entry) the gap is going to widen. I suspect that there will come a time reasonably soon where they'll join a new regionalised European league. But the SFA/SPFL will then allow their colts teams to gain promotion . There might be a small window of 5 years or so for us or the Edinburgh clubs to pick up a few league titles but the arse cheeks will pump money into the colts sides that still outstrips what we can spend and eventually you will have sevco II or Celtic II winning trophies at the same rate as their "big" teams once did.

[Byrne Baby Byrne]

1 hour ago, Ten Caat said:

And yet for closing in rapidly on 40 it hasn't. For the first few of those either ourselves or Hearts or Dundee United did get reasonably close. By the early 90s Celtic were a basket case and we were certainly very close to matching a financially doped oldco but when we started living without our means, it all came home to roost fairly quickly and we had to cut costs dramatically resulting in years of being totally shite. Meanwhile Hearts do get a Russian oligarch onboard who spends a bit of cash......but still dwarfed by what a now stable Celtic and a close to going bust oldco were. I think they managed to split them once in the final league standings although they did pick up some Scottish Cups. Turns out Mad Vlad wasnt particularly wealthy though and administration followed rapidly . If one of the arse cheeks has a bad season or is carrying out a large squad rebuild, we might be able to achieve the same once a decade. But both of them aren't going to have shite seasons in the same year.

Like it or not, you have face reality. Everything in our system is geared up to providing the arse cheeks with every advantage possible. And every year they get Champions League cash (with one now guaranteed group stage direct entry) the gap is going to widen. I suspect that there will come a time reasonably soon where they'll join a new regionalised European league. But the SFA/SPFL will then allow their colts teams to gain promotion . There might be a small window of 5 years or so for us or the Edinburgh clubs to pick up a few league titles but the arse cheeks will pump money into the colts sides that still outstrips what we can spend and eventually you will have sevco II or Celtic II winning trophies at the same rate as their "big" teams once did.

Hearts are surely a poor example though. minijc is explaining what we could achieve with a well run structure. Hearts were the complete opposite of that. If they had the money they had in the mid to late 00s but also had a decent structure they definitely could have achieved more. They were sitting top of the league and had beaten Celtic & Rangers when they sacked George Burley. They had a first team squad of about 60 players as well. They were paying 10k a week to random Lithuanians.

That budget with a sensible chairman and staff would definitely have seen them challenge for a few seasons.

In all fairness I think everyone is making valid points in this thread though. We all know we are shite, we all know its geared towards Celtic & Rangers and we all know its unlikely we will challenge. Some just hope we can find a way

[Big Hat Logan]

7 hours ago, Ten Caat said:

And yet for closing in rapidly on 40 it hasn't. For the first few of those either ourselves or Hearts or Dundee United did get reasonably close. By the early 90s Celtic were a basket case and we were certainly very close to matching a financially doped oldco but when we started living without our means, it all came home to roost fairly quickly and we had to cut costs dramatically resulting in years of being totally shite. Meanwhile Hearts do get a Russian oligarch onboard who spends a bit of cash......but still dwarfed by what a now stable Celtic and a close to going bust oldco were. I think they managed to split them once in the final league standings although they did pick up some Scottish Cups. Turns out Mad Vlad wasnt particularly wealthy though and administration followed rapidly . If one of the arse cheeks has a bad season or is carrying out a large squad rebuild, we might be able to achieve the same once a decade. But both of them aren't going to have shite seasons in the same year.

Like it or not, you have face reality. Everything in our system is geared up to providing the arse cheeks with every advantage possible. And every year they get Champions League cash (with one now guaranteed group stage direct entry) the gap is going to widen. I suspect that there will come a time reasonably soon where they'll join a new regionalised European league. But the SFA/SPFL will then allow their colts teams to gain promotion . There might be a small window of 5 years or so for us or the Edinburgh clubs to pick up a few league titles but the arse cheeks will pump money into the colts sides that still outstrips what we can spend and eventually you will have sevco II or Celtic II winning trophies at the same rate as their "big" teams once did.

which is why it really grates on me when the old firm have a good result in Europe the media are wanking over it being “great for Scottish football”. It’s not. Two clubs get even richer while the rest don’t even get scraps.

[Big Hat Logan]

5 hours ago, Byrne Baby Byrne said:

Hearts are surely a poor example though. minijc is explaining what we could achieve with a well run structure. Hearts were the complete opposite of that. If they had the money they had in the mid to late 00s but also had a decent structure they definitely could have achieved more. They were sitting top of the league and had beaten Celtic & Rangers when they sacked George Burley. They had a first team squad of about 60 players as well. They were paying 10k a week to random Lithuanians.

That budget with a sensible chairman and staff would definitely have seen them challenge for a few seasons.

In all fairness I think everyone is making valid points in this thread though. We all know we are shite, we all know its geared towards Celtic & Rangers and we all know its unlikely we will challenge. Some just hope we can find a way

Minijc watched a documentary on Brentford and now studies statistics and talks about “marginal gains”. The fucking Ian Cathro of this forum, ultimately clueless.

[G31DON]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:29 PM, JamieMT said:

There's no one factor which contributes to our lack of success or the dominance of Celtic & Rangers/Sevco. But for me, mentality goes a long way.

Look across Europe and almost every league features super club(s) who dominate and their dominance is in no small way linked to their wealth. Where Scotland differs is we don't see a blip.

We were the last team outwith Glasgow to win the title since '85. In England the giants have been Utd, City, Arsenal, Chelsea & Liverpool, but Leeds & Leicester have bucked the trend and won the title during that period. In Spain the giants are Real & Barca, but Atletico, Deportivo & Valencia have done the same. In Germany the big guns are Bayern & Dortmund, yet Bremen, Kaiserslautern, Stuttgart & Wolfsburg have won titles. In Italy, Juve & the Milan clubs reign supreme, but it hasn't stopped Lazio, Napoli, Roma & Sampdoria lifting the Serie A during the same time period.

Look further and this is true of almost every if not every league bar our own. In Scotland we play for third before a ball's even been kicked, a guarantee of failure. And all too many of our players (and this is true of the other non-Old Firm clubs also) are far too enthralled by Celtic or Rangers. They aspire not to beat them, simply to play for them.

For things to change it needs to start with a believe that things needs to change. Not among the fans, but within the clubs. A belief that something other than third is achievable. A belief that Celtic and/or Rangers depending on which team you support, is not the divine order. A belief that any aspirations you have for on field success can be achieved whilst playing for one of the other clubs. A belief at board level that investing (wisely) will bring reward and a belief that (and this one is for you Mr Milne) a continuation of the current voting structure can only be detrimental to the league as a whole.

You might think there is no one main factor, but there is. If celtic are getting 60,000 fans every other week to our circa 12,000 it is money, very simple. That's before you add in all the extra match day revenue, club shop tat sales,  selling players for £20,000,000+ etc.

 

Roma, Atletico etc are running at about half of the revenue of the biggest team in their league, while we are about a fifth. 

Napoli also had Maradona to win them their titles. 

[NEM]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:09 AM, Big Hat Logan said:

Leicester hardly did it on a shoestring budget with a load of average players though, did they? The other “big” sides didn’t have great seasons, it all culminated in an incredibly rare set of circumstances that led to Leicester winning the league. 
 

While I get what you and the other guy are saying, it’s just not as simple as that. Not even mentioning our toxic fanbase that constantly abuse players for being shite every single week. I doubt it’s easy having belief in your abilities when all you get is some arseholes screaming that you’re shite for the whole game. Ramirez is our top scorer despite getting zero service from the rest of the team yet is getting slaughtered for “being shite”. His smile is gone, he looks miserable now. Lewis Ferguson, arguably our best player, reduced to gesticulating and arguing with fans because of the abuse.

 

He's got his thick hun cunt of an old man to thank for that

[minijc]

17 hours ago, Big Hat Logan said:

Minijc watched a documentary on Brentford and now studies statistics and talks about “marginal gains”. The fucking Ian Cathro of this forum, ultimately clueless.

Haha not quite, I know guys involved at clubs doing similar things.

 

I just think it's pointless to continue doing the same things and failing over and over again, I also think by looking to do a few things differently it would help the club in the long run.

[Lan_Lad]

25 minutes ago, minijc said:

Haha not quite, I know guys involved at clubs doing similar things.

 

I just think it's pointless to continue doing the same things and failing over and over again, I also think by looking to do a few things differently it would help the club in the long run.

So do you think the OF only need to have belief, or maybe get in better coaches or something to win the Champions League?

[minijc]

13 minutes ago, Lan_Lad said:

So do you think the OF only need to have belief, or maybe get in better coaches or something to win the Champions League?

I'd say that Celtic and Rangers having more self belief have helped them get results in the past in games they had no business getting results in, that comes from their arrogance and on occasions it backfires massively on them.

 

On Rangers I think when they started up the new club they chose the wrong way to go about things, they launched silly money at some shite players and neglected their youth set up, as a club I'm certain they'd be in a better place now overall had they not wasted cash on overpaid shite and went about having a good sustainable structure in place.

With the Champions League it's a closed shop designed to only let the biggest clubs compete in at the business end of it, better coaching would help get them closer over time, enhancing their scouting networks would do that too but they'll always be up against it due to the format of the competition. 

[jamiesd]

Deffo got the psychological edge over opponents in Scotland for sure.

[minijc]

2 minutes ago, Lan_Lad said:

Okay, so let's take it from "they'll always be up against it due to the format of the competition". If they were truly capable of winning the Champions league the format would be pretty much irrelevant to them. They either have a team of that quality or they don't.

There is no way in the modern era to acquire a team of that quality aside from having very large amounts of money, money they don't have. They wont be winning the CL because others have far more money.

And the fact is the relative financial advantage the Euro giants have over them is far less than the advantage they have over us. They have more chance of winning the CL than we do the league. Or anybody else in Scotland for that matter.

Nothing in sport is impossible as such, but some things are so unlikely as to be not worth considering. Hearts are considered to be having an excellent season and they are. SC semi and 3rd place with a 13 point gap to 4th. But a 23 point gap to the top which will no doubt be even larger by the end. 

That says it all, right now the advantage the Glasgow pair have is greater than it's ever been, and they have pretty much always been dominant. This period is a historical peak, and the gap is still growing.

That's the reality and absolutely nothing on this Earth but money is going to change that. 

Yes, that's why every other club should not try anything different and just continue repeating the same things they've done since time started which has got them next to fuck all success.

[Lan_Lad]

27 minutes ago, minijc said:

I'd say that Celtic and Rangers having more self belief have helped them get results in the past in games they had no business getting results in, that comes from their arrogance and on occasions it backfires massively on them.

 

On Rangers I think when they started up the new club they chose the wrong way to go about things, they launched silly money at some shite players and neglected their youth set up, as a club I'm certain they'd be in a better place now overall had they not wasted cash on overpaid shite and went about having a good sustainable structure in place.

With the Champions League it's a closed shop designed to only let the biggest clubs compete in at the business end of it, better coaching would help get them closer over time, enhancing their scouting networks would do that too but they'll always be up against it due to the format of the competition. 

Okay, so let's take it from "they'll always be up against it due to the format of the competition". If they were truly capable of winning the Champions league the format would be pretty much irrelevant to them. They either have a team of that quality or they don't.

There is no way in the modern era to acquire a team of that quality aside from having very large amounts of money, money they don't have. They wont be winning the CL because others have far more money.

And the fact is the relative financial advantage the Euro giants have over them is far less than the advantage they have over us. They have more chance of winning the CL than we do the league. Or anybody else in Scotland for that matter.

Nothing in sport is impossible as such, but some things are so unlikely as to be not worth considering. Hearts are considered to be having an excellent season and they are. SC semi and 3rd place with a 13 point gap to 4th. But a 23 point gap to the top which will no doubt be even larger by the end. 

That says it all, right now the advantage the Glasgow pair have is greater than it's ever been, and they have pretty much always been dominant. This period is a historical peak, and the gap is still growing.

That's the reality and absolutely nothing on this Earth but money is going to change that. 

[Big Hat Logan]

2 hours ago, NEM said:

He's got his thick hun cunt of an old man to thank for that

Not sure he’s responsible for our fans being rockets

1 hour ago, Lan_Lad said:

So do you think the OF only need to have belief, or maybe get in better coaches or something to win the Champions League?

Good question

1 hour ago, minijc said:

I'd say that Celtic and Rangers having more self belief have helped them get results in the past in games they had no business getting results in, that comes from their arrogance and on occasions it backfires massively on them.

 

On Rangers I think when they started up the new club they chose the wrong way to go about things, they launched silly money at some shite players and neglected their youth set up, as a club I'm certain they'd be in a better place now overall had they not wasted cash on overpaid shite and went about having a good sustainable structure in place.

With the Champions League it's a closed shop designed to only let the biggest clubs compete in at the business end of it, better coaching would help get them closer over time, enhancing their scouting networks would do that too but they'll always be up against it due to the format of the competition. 

So you can win the champions league if you just get better staff too?

54 minutes ago, minijc said:

Yes, that's why every other club should not try anything different and just continue repeating the same things they've done since time started which has got them next to fuck all success.

Do you not think clubs try different things? Did AFC not try something different this season?

54 minutes ago, Lan_Lad said:

Okay, so let's take it from "they'll always be up against it due to the format of the competition". If they were truly capable of winning the Champions league the format would be pretty much irrelevant to them. They either have a team of that quality or they don't.

There is no way in the modern era to acquire a team of that quality aside from having very large amounts of money, money they don't have. They wont be winning the CL because others have far more money.

And the fact is the relative financial advantage the Euro giants have over them is far less than the advantage they have over us. They have more chance of winning the CL than we do the league. Or anybody else in Scotland for that matter.

Nothing in sport is impossible as such, but some things are so unlikely as to be not worth considering. Hearts are considered to be having an excellent season and they are. SC semi and 3rd place with a 13 point gap to 4th. But a 23 point gap to the top which will no doubt be even larger by the end. 

That says it all, right now the advantage the Glasgow pair have is greater than it's ever been, and they have pretty much always been dominant. This period is a historical peak, and the gap is still growing.

That's the reality and absolutely nothing on this Earth but money is going to change that. 

Bang on the money 

[minijc]

1 minute ago, Big Hat Logan said:

Not sure he’s responsible for our fans being rockets

Good question

So you can win the champions league if you just get better staff too?

Do you not think clubs try different things? Did AFC not try something different this season?

Bang on the money 

Never said that, did I?

Most clubs continue to work the same old tried and tested way which gets them no where, they are happy to plod along with the same jobs for the boys, same sort of recruitment that doesn't take a genius to work out which players clubs will go for.

[aberdeen1970]

What Brentford are doing isn't anything particularly ground breaking. It's just common sense.  They're just high profile because they are having a good period just now. 

Loads of clubs across Europe are trying to do similar and are using similar or even the same tools.  And many have been adopting those approaches for a long time. 

[minijc]

8 minutes ago, aberdeen1970 said:

What Brentford are doing isn't anything particularly ground breaking. It's just common sense.  They're just high profile because they are having a good period just now. 

Loads of clubs across Europe are trying to do similar and are using similar or even the same tools.  And many have been adopting those approaches for a long time. 

Correct but they are a good example due to the size of their club and their turnover before adopting this approach.  Their owner is a very smart guy, his analytics team are one of the best in Europe and it shows.

[Big Hat Logan]

1 hour ago, minijc said:

Never said that, did I?

Most clubs continue to work the same old tried and tested way which gets them no where, they are happy to plod along with the same jobs for the boys, same sort of recruitment that doesn't take a genius to work out which players clubs will go for.

This season we replaced our coaching staff and also recruited from America. None of the staff were “tried and tested” and neither was the American market. 
 

 

[Big Hat Logan]

52 minutes ago, minijc said:

Correct but they are a good example due to the size of their club and their turnover before adopting this approach.  Their owner is a very smart guy, his analytics team are one of the best in Europe and it shows.

And yet they’ve won fuck all ??‍♂️

[aberdeen1970]

51 minutes ago, minijc said:

Correct but they are a good example due to the size of their club and their turnover before adopting this approach.  Their owner is a very smart guy, his analytics team are one of the best in Europe and it shows.

Well if you employ talented and experienced people and you provide them with the right tools then you'd expect better results. 

Unfortunately we did neither of those things when we appointed an inexperienced Glass and his inexperienced team and then provided him with the most inappropriate set of players to play a high intensity, high pressing style of play. 

[minijc]

6 minutes ago, Big Hat Logan said:

This season we replaced our coaching staff and also recruited from America. None of the staff were “tried and tested” and neither was the American market. 
 

 

Success doesn't happen overnight. 

3 minutes ago, Big Hat Logan said:

And yet they’ve won fuck all ??‍♂️

Promotion twice despite having a fraction of the resources the majority of clubs they are competing with have.  Also their sister club FC Midtjylland have been very successful since adopting this approach.

[dj_bollocks]

A lot of people comparing our lack of success vs the arsecheeks or England... 

Forget about our domestic League it's won before a ball is kicked... It's our performance in Europe that should be scrutinised and criticised... That's where the money is... We never had a team ready under McInnes and when there was a chance to progress he failed... Playing in Europe in whatever league will pretty much increase our turnover by about 50% or more...  No one's expecting us to win the thing... But keep the cash registers ringing and the money coming in consistently and over 5-10 years we would be way more competitive than we are now, 3rd by some distance and one hope progressing from Europa Conference League to Europa Cup to... Well who knows ? But we're so far away from that and have been for decades...

[Big Hat Logan]

3 hours ago, minijc said:

Success doesn't happen overnight. 

Promotion twice despite having a fraction of the resources the majority of clubs they are competing with have.  Also their sister club FC Midtjylland have been very successful since adopting this approach.

So we should have persevered with Glass and co?

Wow, promotion twice. Almost as exciting as our top six trophy haul.

1 hour ago, dj_bollocks said:

A lot of people comparing our lack of success vs the arsecheeks or England... 

Forget about our domestic League it's won before a ball is kicked... It's our performance in Europe that should be scrutinised and criticised... That's where the money is... We never had a team ready under McInnes and when there was a chance to progress he failed... Playing in Europe in whatever league will pretty much increase our turnover by about 50% or more...  No one's expecting us to win the thing... But keep the cash registers ringing and the money coming in consistently and over 5-10 years we would be way more competitive than we are now, 3rd by some distance and one hope progressing from Europa Conference League to Europa Cup to... Well who knows ? But we're so far away from that and have been for decades...

We get so far then meet a team that’s considerably better than us. This season was the chance to make some money by going into groups automatically but that’s gone now.

[Poodler]

Are you this painful in real life? 
 

it’s Friday night min 

get some RnR on 

[Big Hat Logan]

2 hours ago, Poodler said:

Are you this painful in real life? 
 

it’s Friday night min 

get some RnR on 

Like you are doing right now aye? 
 

Gimp

[Lan_Lad]

4 hours ago, dj_bollocks said:

A lot of people comparing our lack of success vs the arsecheeks or England... 

Forget about our domestic League it's won before a ball is kicked... It's our performance in Europe that should be scrutinised and criticised... That's where the money is... We never had a team ready under McInnes and when there was a chance to progress he failed... Playing in Europe in whatever league will pretty much increase our turnover by about 50% or more...  No one's expecting us to win the thing... But keep the cash registers ringing and the money coming in consistently and over 5-10 years we would be way more competitive than we are now, 3rd by some distance and one hope progressing from Europa Conference League to Europa Cup to... Well who knows ? But we're so far away from that and have been for decades...

That's a major point, winning the league gets you little in terms of prize money, while Europe is an avenue to multi millions. This season could be a disaster in more ways than one if both Hearts and Hibs make a Euro group next season. 

[King Street Loon]

Currently listening to the 2 Blokes and a Mic podcast and one of them was in about Cormack Park to see Steven Gunn about something. 

Mentioned that Scott Brown essentially ripped up his contract and basically saved Aberdeen a good bit of cash. Fair play to him for that if true.